Thanks for including me. I'll do my best to help things go smoothly which is what I see Mods as being all about anyway.

Fucksake. I take a spate of weeks off to try and piece together my fucking life and come back to this. I wouldn't have been back so soon at all, had Craig not drawn my attention to what was going on.

You are all entirely too fucking enthused about sealing the fucking blast door on the established forums, and I've tried - honestly, I tried - to read through this fucking beast of a thread, but it became difficult to continue through the rage, disgust, and the fucking love-in attitude everyone's taking with all these wonderful and new ideas that sound really appealing because, as far as I can tell, they're "new", and that's enough.

I'm in a shit mood and haven't been doing so hot of late. Right now, I'm tempted to say fuck it, if you guys plan to scrap 18 and 10, you can scrap me, too. That's not a deterrent, merely the fact of the matter. I don't know that I have the energy to do this shit all over again, nor am I particularly favorably inclined towards scrapping all my characters or some of the rule changes that have been proposed. I'm not going to build you a shopping list, but some of those guidelines sound like the sort of thing that Eichmann would write if he was alive today and a fat neckbeard.

The fact that all of you seem to be so unanimously on board for this idea makes me wonder if I have a place here, anymore. No hard feelings if I don't. Something I'll have to think on, I guess.

I'm kinda wary of it myself, though I'm willing to give it a try. And I still want to RP in 18 and 10.

Rev made mention of this to me one evening, and I admit that I was pretty skeptical. I read through the posts, and I'm willing to give it a shot.

If my memory's correct, I made Vv with 96 NPs. 96. It was ridiculous, but I got the impression from the fictions I'd read that it was necessary to even function in the "NPrime +10" (Thanks, PW) setting. Even with that being said, I can count on my hands the number of times her powers were actually used, and I've never been able to justify ignoring/retconning the fictions I wrote with her and the decisions I made for her. I haven't been satisfied with the way she turned out, and though the fault for that rests on my shoulders, I welcome the opportunity to try again- whether it's in an AU environment apart from 2018, or whether 2018 itself is closed completely.

I haven't been posting in the forums because, quite simply, they don't grab my interest the way they did when I first signed up. The stories were dynamic and inclusive, but eventually 2017 became so implausibly over-powered as to prevent me from suspending even the tiniest shred of disbelief... 2008 was overrun very, very quickly with throngs of new characters (and, yes, I did make a few of them) all vying for attention and fic space and "cool" concepts, so that very few of them actually had time to develop into anything more than a character sheet and an OpNet greeting thread.

I don't enjoy trying to collaborate with characters who aren't going to be around in 20 posts or so because the new month has rolled around and the player'll have a new idea du jour, so perhaps I never took the newest forum seriously enough. If so, I obviously bear the burden of responsibility for that. I also don't enjoy trying to collaborate with certain of the writers here because our ideas about the game and our styles of authorship are not compatible.

I see no reason to scrap the original forums- if anything, I think this new section or era should be considered AU, in which we can freely explore alternate lives for our beloved personas or forge new ones entirely. I've always been fascinated by "What If?" storylines, and this seems a good opportunity, at least to me, to venture down paths we didn't choose elsewhere.

If you don't feel, Seph, that it's worth your time, that's fine. I understand your skepticism and your reservations, and I, personally, will think no less of you. You're honest, and I've always respected that. My reasons for being interested in this proposal are, frankly, pretty selfish- I want to be captivated by the stories again. I want to get caught up in the dramas that were penned so compellingly, and I want the chance to participate in them again. 2018 has lost inertia, and attempts to revive it haven't had much effect. If this breathes some life into this place, and recaptures some of that magic for me, I'll do what I can to help Nova and everyone else make it work.

You realize this was my idea, right? You're shitting on me.

Thanks, friend.

Seph, I don't recognize the name. As astounding as that is, considering I've been gone, I'm going to assume I don't know you and just say I hope things get better for you.

As far as what's being talked about... I'm pretty enthused about the idea. I'd been around for a while so, as much fun as what eventually become 2018 was for me, I'm ready for a change. It doesn't mean you can't have fun with it but I'd like to try something else. What Nova has been midwifing sounds really interesting to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from the imaginations of people I've known a long time like James, Kimberly, Jordan and Craig. I'm also looking forward to seeing what comes from the minds of people I've never told stories with like Nova, Mr Fox, Lily, Velvet and others. New year, new starts and a chance to hang out at a place I've derived so much enjoyment from in the past.

Seph, Joseph. Ronin. Avenger. Machina.

Folks are taking this waaaaaay to fucking personally.

Joseph, stop acting, in your words, all butt-sore. You've been gone for awhile, and even before you took this last break you were very much hit-and-miss with appearences here. Did you have a reason? Hell yes. But it was a contibuting factor. Some folks dropped for real-life reasons, others, like myself, got fucking bored with what this was. A thread started saying "Hey, whats up?" and a conversation started and went places. Instead of getting hysterical how about you participate in the conversation, make your arguments and take a stand?




Nova, recognize that you know Joseph and you KNOW this is how he approaches everything, he's passionate and vulgar. Don't get hurt.

It is butt-hurt, sir.



Six weeks, Craig. I've been gone for six weeks. Hardly an extended hiatus. I've still checked in periodically, I've simply been overwhelmed by my outside duties. I've had every intention of returning here to finish what I've started, I just needed some time, and I don't think six goddamn weeks is long enough to be kicked out of the little club of People Who Fucking Matter. If you hadn't told me this shit was going down, I very well could have come back in a week or two to a totally different board.

I'm raw about that, and I'm raw about the fact that I was totally left out of these proceedings.



Because I feel very unwelcome in that I was not invited to take part in these proceedings or even made aware of their existence until tonight. It's not like none of you having my fucking address.



We're of a kind, Craig. I'd respond much the same way. I get it.

Well, no one was invited to the conversation. Just kind of happened. Folks who saw it joined in. And it's been about 8 days total since it started. Kind of a wildfire y'know?

Joesph, I sent you a PM. It's with more than a little embarrassment I have to admit I didn't recognize the alt.

I actually lucked into seeing this go down myself. It was more or less a fluke that I chanced to drop in when I did. I was actually looking to archive an old story and decided to check what this thread was about.

I'm glad I did.

The term "power gamer" really irritates me, especially when used as a pejorative.

If the holier than thou types who criticize such were really "true role players" they would be enacting civil war battles or in the SCA. When I look at my gaming shelves every game I have contaons powers. Star Wars has Jedi, the WoD is all empowered. Rifts, Shadowrun, DnD all have magic. Marvel Super Heroes, Aberrant, Champions...all super powers.

I like my games with fantasy. Within the realms of real life and fantasy, there are those with more or less "power." I see nothing wrong and no *real* difference between playing some average joe in wonderland, a godling in aberrant or a litteral god in Rifts.

There are many stories worth telling. 2018 was supposed to be a place to play the high powered concepts. Some people dont like high powered. Totally fine. Equally valid style of play. Hence the creation of 2008.

Now we are creating a new Game/Story. Fox and I and others want to play a high powered game. MOstly becuase we never really get the chance to. So when people come in and get all huffed up, pointing fingers and calling us powergamers for wanting a high powered game and asking for it specifically I ask: whats the point?

Nearly every game I am playing in started with basic 30 NPs. I look forward to playing "movers and shakers" rather than "average paragons."

So long as we steer clear of the "fat cracklin' cosmic power o' the gods" we should be fine.

So I am going to put this out there: If we really want to encourage freedom of choice in characters why limit things at all? If we are truly going to abide by the golden rule of dont be a dick, then why not let that arbitrate. So someone comes along and has a Q6 god...I have heard several people here comment along the lines of "Oh NO! I wont have anything in common with them. Well what would you do in RL? heres a thought: NOT talk to them. Other more adventurous yet still happily satisfied players of low powered types may be curious and talk with the godling. Wow, an interesting relationship can develop! If the Q6 god has issues with talking to lower powered novas or baselines its their fault and they will gravitate to the people that interest them.

Its an effing game people. If its not a game and its a story then throw all the rules out the wndow and just create cool stories with characters and powers or not from your imagination.

I realize this post may be controversial but some of these comments, especially the ones that whine about high powered characters strike me as hypocritical considering all of us are playing a game that was advertised with What would you do with the power of a god?

Honestly now people...

I've made it through the thread, now, so I'm going to try to add something to it, minus my reactions. I've said my little emo crybaby "I feel..." piece, so I'll move on to something I'm more accustomed to: logistics.

Point Cap: 60
It's a minor detail, really, but if the plan is to have people pick a number equal to or less than the ceiling and then grow into it, I'd rather that upper limit be as elastic as is reasonable. It allows for a greater variance of characters without things ever getting like they were. At 60NP, nobody will ever be Long, Jager, or ronin, ever again.

Point Cap Raised: Yes (5NP)
I'd support 2NP/3NP semi-annually. A year is a long, long time to go without developing your character's power suite, and it lacks verisimilitude, to me. Novas don't take a year to develop a dot of Quantum Bolt where they had none. And yes, I realize the proposed idea allows for people to develop abilities via fiction: I simply like the idea of what I see as slightly better pacing with the arbitrary awards.

Q6+: No
I qualify: not to start. I think the minimum time barrier established in 2010 was a good idea, it just never saw use. I think it's reasonable for some characters to reach that level eventually, but not at the start of the game. Q6 should have to be purchased with accumulated NP and never get higher than 6.

Merits and Flaws: Abstain
I'm ambiguous about Merits & Flaws. I agree with the idea that if you have a cool concept that includes being blind or crippled or whatever, you should just play it, damn the points. That works both ways, though: it's such a niggling amount of points, why bother restricting it?

Strengths and Weaknesses: Emphatic Fuck Yes
Some people abuse the S&W system, and that's a shame, but I've seen - and to make plain my personal bias, have played - some damn fine concepts that could not have existed without Strenths & Weaknesses. A lot of the hate I'm seeing here for them is totally bizarre to me, because I've seen so few examples of its abuse and so many good examples of how it can be done to create interesting concepts. Are you guys really fucking sure about this? Because I feel like I'm missing something.

Limited Moderation: Yes
Well, unless you're going to force everyone to post character sheets or put everyone on the honor system, it's basically a necessity. How else could the starting character creation rules possibly be enforced?

Canon Set in Stone: Yes-ish
I think the major canon events should stay, but all the fluff surrounding them is up for interpretation. Must of it is pretty vague, anyway, and easy to navigate around - or through - if you're smart.

Some other issues I wanted to address, since they came up:

What to do with 2018 and 2010:
This is going to sound radical, but hear me out.

First off, shut down/lock/freeze/close the 2018 OpNet forum. It's time is done. So little goes on there in the way of actual conversation anymore, most of it's just periodic announcements from characters generating interest in a fiction (something that could be done OOC, or through PMs) or silly little meme stuff. Leave the 2018 Fiction forum open: people who have stories left to tell should be able to finish them, if they so desire.

Shut down the 2010 forum altogether. It was a noble experiment, but a lot of what you've said is right: too much, too soon. Of course, this "solution" begs the question of what to do with the characters, but I have a solution for that, too.

What to do About Characters:

Any 2010 character who wants to can be directly imported to the new forum, and can take or leave as much or as little of their stories and interactions from the 2010 boards as they like. All characters on that forum already have character sheets and there isn't a chance a hell any of them have the equivalent of 50NP, so if someone is so attached to one of those characters that they want to continue playing them, they should feel free to port them over.

Likewise, I don't see anything wrong with playing 2.0 versions of some of the 2018 characters. People have already expressed interest in that. I think it's a good idea, if it's what you're into.

I also think that the quantity of characters per player should be limited on this new forum. It doesn't have to be a great, straining thing, but to echo what others have said, the explosion of characters on 2010 lead to a lot of confusion and a lot of dilution of the waters, and that's something that should be avoided at all costs. Perhaps limit people to no more than three characters at a time, or one every six months with two to start out.

Why kill 2010? I'm sure a lot of people are going to dislike this prognosis, but that forum is dying. There are too many characters, too many plots, and too much that will remain forever unresolved. I think porting any characters who wish to make the exodus to the new forum and closing the door behind them is the most merciful and sensible thing to do with it. It was a good experiment, but for reasons that have already been bludgeoned into fucking paste, it failed, and it's time to move on from it.

Overload.

Been there, done that.

Didn't work.

The fate of 2010 has been the elephant in the room for a week. Bless you for finally kicking it into play.

As Hugin said... Some of us are taking this entire discussion far too personally. I don't recall anyone specifically singling out anyone else for insults or derision, so taking what's posted here as a personal attack against you or your preferences in gaming styles is a bit silly. All are equally valid, even if all of them do not lend themselves well to collaborative fictions based on an RPG.

The idea of a shared game/world is that, while everyone cannot be satisfied on every single point, a consensus can be reached that will determine what is and is not acceptable to the majority of those who will be participating. If a high-powered setting isn't what most people want, then those who do want one will either need to adjust their concepts accordingly or choose a forum that's more accommodating to their particular style of play. If the consensus is that character sheets have to be public, we'll either post them or not participate. There's been nothing I've seen so far that's blatantly excluded even our own resident power-lovers, so perhaps, instead of posting pseudo-flame after pseudo-flame, you might try to contribute posts that add to the current discussion instead of detracting from it.

When I say 'power gamer' I mean in terms of those people who never have enough points to spend, the highest abilities to start with, or the best equipment there is.

Power gamers ask for more, more, more, more... and when you give it to them once they keep asking for more. Which is what is already being done. 50 will become 60, 15 will become 25... etc.

I mean seriously, fuck it. What you guys decide I'll go along with. If there is one thing I've learned in my time here it's that we can't please everybody. If I don't like it, I just won't be there. It's that simple.



Play in 2018, there isn't anyone stopping you. That game's power level is the sole reason for the reboot. So if we reboot 2018 because of the high power level and then turn around and create another high powered game to take it's place I have to ask: whats the point?

This is not a whole new game dreamnt up by Nova because she had free time a few hits of peyote one evening. It's a reboot to lower the power level of a currently existing section of the forum. It's been said from the very first post what Nova's intentions are.

What part of this is soaring over your head? What part is not coming in clear to you? Where did you get lost along the way?

And people wonder why I stay gone for so long sometimes... <facepalms> It's like pulling teeth around here sometimes.

I'm a bit reluctant to make decisions for 2010 without some of its more active participants getting involved in the conversation, because I don't want to take a forum away from people who may simply not have had the time to check in recently.

I do think, however, that the ideas presented thus far for integration of 2018/2010 characters have been reasonable, and while perhaps the fates of the existing forums might require further discussion (this has all been posted in a relatively short span of time, after all), it might still be possible to decide how this new playground will function with respect to the other two.

(If these have been addressed, and I missed them, I apologize in advance and you may feel free to point out my error. )

Will we allow imports of existing 2010 characters?

Will it be considered part of the same timeline as the other two forums, or will it exist independently in an alternate reality of some sort?

How many characters should be allotted to each player, including any imports from the other settings (if allowed)?

In response to Warren, I thought the issue at hand was less peoples power and more of them just being asshats about having it...

My situation is a little different but honestly I agree for the most part with that summation. Unfortunately, we as a group really have been there before. No I haven't had this discusson with you, not that I know of anyway, but I have had it many times.

There is a character who now is essentially a plot device. That character can do anything, or if he can't do it he has an automatic defense that prevents you from doing anything he'd rather you not do. But I remember when that character was a character rather than a plot device. I remember when he had 2 dots of mega attributes rather than 6 in all attribute areas. I remember when he had some abilities beyond those of mortal men rather than a xerox copy of all the powers in the books. I thought the character was interesting when he was a character even though I didn't always agree on what the player had the character do. But along the way to getting where things are now we'd discussed this explosion of growth as it was happening, argued about it and even traded insults and ultimatums. In the end it changed nothing and a good character was lost.

If you put a group together specifically calling for warriors of level X, someone will want to bring an old style Bard. Someone else will want a character of level X+2 because that allows them the abilties they envision as being part of the character concept. A third player with show up with a warrior of level X but with an legendary weapon as well and a really great back story of why she has a legendary weapon. All of this is within the realm of the possible. But then someone will come along demanding to play Thor God of the Storms, whom a thousand warriors of level X couldn't bring down if they tried unto their deaths, and the ugliness ensues.

I'd rather NOT go through that again. I'm more than happy with 50 np to start, in a game wherein the starting point level is considered full powered and well above the average at 30np.

As someone who actively posts in 2010, and has further posts on the way, would feel betrayed by a scrapping of 2010.

Why?

-2018 had no discernable advancement structure. People gave themselves whatever they wanted when they wanted to. Soon there were characters who could destroy the planet for their afternoon entertainment. Newcomers, so they didn't feel like an ant trying to talk to a human, started with characters that had 150-300 Np's.

-2010. Experience alotted at the start of every month, let characters evolve slowly over the course of a year. You want a background, write a fic that talks about how you got it. A new power-describe how it made your characer feel.

-The reboot of 2018 is going to allot np's yearly (or semi-annually). That is a long time to wait to allocate points. Some of you might like to play a static character. I do not, I like the process of change.

-After another year, the initial characters of 2010 will be on par with 60 point novas. They will have accumulated 90 + xp. Sure, xp's don't spend the same as NP's, but it is still a lot.

-I don't think people have become tired of 2010, I think RL has forced us to prioritize. After posting in PR, TLM, BESM, and D&D, I make time to post in 2010.

-There are still a handful of us who post in 2010. That is a handful more than 2018. That is why we are looking at a 2018 reboot. 2010 may be experiencing growing pains, as unknown characters try to fit in to a new world. Lets give 2010 another year before pulling the plug.

RE: limiting the # of characters:
Damn fine idea Seph. 3 at a time sounds like a reasonable #, I would even support adding more over time, but given that one of 2010s biggest problems is that people are diluting their efforts so much, I think that if you want to add a new character, one of the original three should become an NPC. Also, limit adding new ones to once every 6 months at most, or even 1 per year.
You would get a max of 3, but could only have 3 active characters at any one time. New characters would mean shelving an old one.

Re: Incremental increase in power
I see nothing wrong with breaking up that 5 points. Give 2 points out in July, and another 3 in Jan. I wouldn't want to break it up further than that.

2 points in July? 3 more in Jan.? That doesnt really solve WR's problem... What are you going to do with 2 NPs??? You would still have to bank for the year to buy a single dot in an L3 power...and 2 years if that power required an extra dot of Quantum.

Honestly with all this discussion going on and on it reminds me of the thought I had when I first discovered Nprime way back. Namely that there is no way to play a roleplaying game in such a way. This whole topic is the reason STs were invented...SOMEBODY has to act as a foil for the PCs to make it flow.

I'll say it again: if y'all are so keen on just telling stories just throw the friggen rulebook out... Since any battles are to be "scripted" in advance who needs dots? Fuck em. (the dots...).

Leave the other forums alone.

Serioulsy, if 2018 is that dead, leaving its corpse there for those few of us who still care won't be draining off any of your efforts. If someone new comes around and wants to create someone totally unfettered just for the experience, we have a space there for them.

Leave 2010 alone because its not dead. This sounds more like an effort to such off any remaining vitality over to this New forum, which isn't fair for those of us who have invested time and energy there. Its barely been a year and some people already want to dump it. Hell no. I hope to see Liberteen and Nathan Dayes in thier original home once more. Maybe even some Kara.

Limit the number of characters? Why? Unless you are like me, you probably never have more than two or three characters. If I choose to "dilute" my efforts with more than three characters, isn't that my fault and responsibility? It isn't like we don't have people here who don't post more than once a week most the time ... or once a year, if we are so blessed?

Are we thinking that the forum will get deluged with a bunch of characters ... like we are planning to do by bringing characters over from other forums as well as creating new ones? Or, do we really want a small community of only a dozen novas who sit around and kivetch?

Free-form? That would be the 2018 forum that no one seems to like anymore, so it must be BAD.

If you want to play a game-based story, give 2010 another try, because that was what the setting was supposed to be about.

All I can really say on the matter is "Try to have fun" no matter how hard that seems to be.

Im just saying if everything is scripted in advance we dont need character shhets. Just a well defined concept. But 5 NP a year? Hell no. I agree with WR...advancement that slow, even by forum stadards isnt even worth it. It means playing a "static" character.

Mmmm ... I think that is their intention.

This is about ROLE-PLAYING, not Gaming, but instead of having everything fluid and up in the air (which hasn't worked to their approval), they would rather restrict the Gaming side of the equation.

Also, I think there is a bit of an Anti-"My Favorite Character" Syndrome going on. Better to play one character to a finite conclusion over a period of a few months then pick up another character. Those of us who want to keep playing and playing a character are stuck with a glacially slow advancement scheme, which dampens out enthusiasm for the game, dontchya know?

To those who want to Roleplay and forget the numbers well, they will write what makes a good story.

In the current atmosphere (unless you want to ramrod the effort for another setting too), if you want to advance, you are forced to create a 30NP character and then dole out NP's as the year progresses - until you hit that 50, or 60 NP wall. I hope you have an airbag.

This is to be a forum for writing stories and interacting IC. It is not a game to be won. The use of Aberrant rules is to provide a framework for those stories.

Later today I'm starting the epic final-flamewar lets-get-this-done thread.

I think the 5np a year advancement was the middle ground between those who wanted no advancement at all and the other side of the equation. If you want more advancement raise the bar and vote that way. I originally said 5 or 10 NP a year, but the overwhelming majority seemed to want slow advancement if any at all. If you want more speak up and say so and we can vote on it. What is your proposal for 'more'?

I am drafting the MASSIVE WALL OF WORDS now. I'll post it soon.

I'll say it again, ONE MORE TIME.

Roleplaying games are NOT about winning. BUt they do have a framework. I would rather Fox or someone ST the whole monsterosity. will somone PLEASE explain WHY for the love of Pete, we need fragging rules AT ALL, when this whole debocle REQUIRES you to script out events in advance. HONESTLY!!! The only reason roleplaying games have rules at all is to ARBITRATE CONFLICT. IS your character skilled enought to hack that firewall? Can they survive Captain Atom's Inferno? Refer to dice.

But since we are already going to mofugging SCRIPT it all, then FUCK the rules! We dont need em anymore.