Enough popular support seems to exist for this measure that the other Mods have agreed that it's time. As such, we're opening this up for discussion, official time making thing.

If the proposal listed below seems to garner enough support and we can have a civil discussion about any modifications to make to the proposal itself, I'll post a poll in a few days that we can vote on like civilized little subjects. Until then, read over the proposal and tell us what you think. If you have an amendment to make, suggest it. If you're flat-out opposed, now's the time to make your argument.

The Official Proposal to be Voted On:
2010 Migration Proposal: Players with established and Moderator-approved characters in the 2010 forum milieu may bring over one character into the 200X forum free of charge. Any further characters that a player wishes to be brought over from that forum will cost a character credit. To compensate those who do not have any Moderator-approved 2010 characters, an additional one character credit will be added to their yearly allotment, active 01 May 2008.

Why 01 May? Why not? What, you in that big of a hurry to make another character? Who the hell do you think you are? What, is your superpower coming up with too many characters for you to manage? Settle down, there, Tex. Sheesh. Aw, come on, don't cry. I didn't mean it. Look, here's a cookie. Friends, right? Cool.

The call for vote on the final draft of this amendment to the 200X Bible will be posted 72 hours from now. The vote will follow the procedure established in the 200X Bible:

Passage of the amendment will require a "yes" vote by 2/3 of active 200X writers, with the official call for vote to be posted by a member of the moderation staff. The voting period will last 168 hours (7 days) from the moment of the call for the vote. For the purposes of this section, an active writer is considered to be a single individual who has posted IC to either the 200X Fiction or the OpNet 200X forums within the 14 days preceding the call for the vote.

I'm not opposed to the character migration, but I'd like 2010 migrations to cost a slot, without a free one. 200X was a 2018 reboot, after all, and I think any character not originally from that forum should cost that slot. I also think that will slow the flood gates of new characters a bit.

Could be wrong, but that's my $.02

Just as a thought - If they cost a slot, and use the same character design, then why not just make the character over again?

Count me out, I'm no longer an active writer in 2010. You'll have to weather this one without me.

I agree with Juri though. 2010 characters should cost a character slot and not be given out as a freebie. For all intents and purposes 200X was mentioned several times as a reboot of 2018. For this reason, 2010 characters should cost a slot.

Ditto.

Just curious, but 2/3 of which active writers?

I hope you are not saying that the 200x writers get to vote on a proposal that affects 2010?

That would be like having the citizens of Venezuela vote for legislation that affects the nation of England.

This has nothing to do with 2010, save that the characters come from there. This vote affects only the 200x board, and should only be voted on by the 200x players. The only reason this is an issue is because 200x is a reboot of 2018, not 2010.

Ditto that Ditto.

I disagree.

3 points:

1. It affects established canon in 2010. Do we delete all stories writen by the migrated characters? In effect, erasing their impact on 2010? What about stories where one character's life has been affected by another character? Do we delete all the posts of migrated players...in effect gutting the 2010 board? Or do we change 2010 canon to reflect the moving of those characters?

2. If the character was no longer worthy of writing stories for in 2010, what makes you think that it will change in 200x? Do you fell more creative writing under a 'benevolent autocracy'? Unless the real reason that you want to move them, is to merge them with the 2018 reboots. This gets me to my third point.

3. This seems like a way to get around the charter in 2010. How? If the charter says that we can't merge them with 2018 characters, you simply move the 2018 characters, by rebooting them, then you move the 2010 characters into the same forum? Voila...you have now merged 2010 characters with 2018 characters, without violating the letter of the law.

I appreciate your concerns, but I think they're unfounded. You raise three sound objections, and I'm going to give what I hope are three sound reasons why I don't find them relevant.



I don't see why moving the characters would ret-con their actions. If a 2010 character was banned for cheating, we wouldn't erase all their stories, we'd simply say they're not allowed to play any further. If the 2010 Mods have a problem with this action, they can decide how they want to handle it on the 2010 forum. Thankfully, I'm not a 2010 Mod, so that burden doesn't fall on me.

You're overthinking this. Plenty of characters have left the 2010 forum already, because their players left or ran out of time to invest in them. We don't all sit around on our asses going "Where's Sascha? Anybody know what happened to Sascha?" No. We move on with our life, and I can imagine that the characters who migrate elsewhere can be simply assumed to have stopped posting and interacting with the other 2010 characters, if the Mods decide that moving isn't kosher. Why must it be more complicated than 'Dustbin doesn't post here, anymore'?



Let's pretend that what you mentioned isn't a valid reason. 200X has different character generation rules, different original characters, and is on a different, earlier timeline. Also, there's less activity in the 2010 forum, which offers fewer opportunities for interaction. That should be enough without bringing 2018 reboots even into the equation.



That's certainly a consequence of this action, yes. What, pray, is the problem with creative litigious maneuvering? You said it yourself: it doesn't violate the letter of the law. Are you trying to tell me that there's some "spirit of the law" we should abide? I didn't sign a Charter saying I'd obey a bunch of implied rules. The Charter is more than verbose enough to defend itself, and if a loophole has been found that players may slip through, my only real reaction to this is an impotent shrug of the shoulders.

Oh, right, and to everyone else, objecting to giving out a free credit to anyone with a 2010 port? Thanks. That was my take on the issue, as well, but I figured I'd at least throw the carrot out there to see if anyone nibbled. Most of you seem outright against it, and I'm happy to take it back.

Actually Seph, I was thinking that there was nothing wrong with giving a migrated 2010 character a slot. A rebooted character still brings a lot of "stuff" with it that helps with the feel for the character.

My mistake: I was not specific enough. 2/3 of 200X writers, I mean. I have no authority over 2010. You're eligible.

That's precisely what I am saying. Besides which, the voters of one nation routinely affect conditions inside another nation--not directly, obviously, since the very definition of "nation" precludes one nation governing another in such a direct way-- but indirectly, through the external effects of their internal policies.

You mean like a declaration of war, or a policy of invasion...

It's your choice to frame this discussion in only negative ways. That's not an accurate representation of reality. It's obviously biased and easily discredited. Can't you do better, or is your heart really not in this argument?

Or trade policies, or border controls, or diplomatic channels, to extend the metaphor. Not every display of human behavior is a violent one.

I think White has a point. In these interactions, it seems to me that the 2010 environment isn't getting much out of the deal. Characters will be leaving 2010 and taking that creative energy to 2008. Isn't this what we are talking about?

Trade requires an agreement between two nations. Diplomacy is conducted by representative on each side. There is none in this case. Here, one nation's people get to make a decision regarding another nation. The other nation, doesn'thave any say. What you are asking is for is that 2010 submit to 200x's will, because the people in 200x want it.

Why don't you ask the people in 2010 to vote on whether characters can be exported to other forums?

If you can find any, that is. Have you looked at the post count over there lately?

The creative energy is already gone. I'd like to break my 2010 characters out of that morgue.

Pew Pew Pew is sad in 2010. You don't want Pew Pew Pew to be sad, do you?

Do you?

Please don't leave me all alone over in 2010. . .

See? SEE?

Okay, that was cheap. Sorry.

No, I don't. That is why I have reconsidered my position. While I feel this will do no good for 2010, I don't see what good it does to keep unhappy and non-contributing people around. It doesn't make sense.

As Seph said, its ya'll's intellectual property. Take it. Use it. Have fun with it.

There is too much sadness in the world already.

I was under the impression that's what we were doing. I'd postulate that the people with a vested interest in whether or not 2010 is allowed to export are fully capable of coming over here and voting on it. I might even go so far as to say that the entire discussion of 2010 Migration is a topic aimed explicitly at them.

This entire "issue" surrounding the 2010 forum is confusing to me. Honestly, the reason I never really considered getting involved with 2010 is because of the (IMHO) highly anal-retentive charter they have over there. I'm sure they had their reasons, but I'm having none of it. Any character I create is mine, and I'm going to do what I damn well please with them, thank you very, very much.
If some one wants to fork over cold, hard cash for creative rights to my creations, then fine, in that case I've given up certain rights (perhaps all rights) regarding my characters. But otherwise it doesn't matter whether my characters appear in 2010, 2018, or the freaking Core Aberrant book! Anyone who doubts this needs to go do some homework to find out what the rights of Creators are in regards to their creations.
As the Creator of a given character/story/work of art/etc, you have certain basic rights. These include:
Reproduction Right. You have the right to make copies of the original work (in this case, this would mean copying and distributing a fic you did for 2010, or copies of your PC's profile).
Modification Right. You have the right to create derivative works based on the original work. (yeah that's right, try to ignore that one!)

The list goes on, but most of them don't actually apply because any 2010 creation is based in the Aberrant setting which is copyrighted by a large RPG company who will sue your ass if you try and ignore that copyright.

The point is that unless the 2010 Charter (and your tacit agreement with it) grants them Exclusive Rights or All Rights to your creations, then there is no discussion here.
You have the right, not the option, the right to recreate your 2010 characters in whole or in part in the 200X forum. The only question is whether 200X will accept your 2010 PC as an approved character, not whether 2010 likes the idea that your character (or some derivative) exists in another fictional setting.

And for the record, I approve of the idea that 2010 characters should be allowed, but I say that 2010 characters should cost a character slot. I say this only because I too am worried about ending up with a whole slew of characters who show up and then vanish after a few posts, never to show their fictional faces again.

My only concern as a new and soon to be active writer is that I will be limited to only 2 characters and everyone else will have a tone of reboots in addition.

I realize this is by design to allow the reboots but it also sort of skews the board in favor of "the old guard" in terms of that very same interactive potential.

it would be nice to see a level playing field with a set number of characters reboot or no.

Agreed. This worries me too. It's one of the reasons I stonewalled Seph from posting this proposal as long as humanly possible. Once I saw his forehead vein start to throb in that "Henry Rollins" kind of way, I knew it was time to step aside.

I disagree, it is an adequate metaphor for what 200x wishes to do to 2010. You want to make changes to 2010 without the consent of 2010. That is an act of agression by 200X on 2010.

You also speak of Bias. That's really funny....you are a moderator, and the creator of 200x? You also admit that your creation (200x) is non-democratic. You now want to impose on the people of 2010 without them having a say. So not only do you not allow people in your own forum to vote on things, but you don't want 2010 to vote either. I'd say this illustrates well the reality that humanity seeks to dominate and impose its will on others.

Look, if I bring Kara over (and you ALL know that's exactly what would happen if this happens the way it seems it will), she will not be at all the same as she is. Would that invalidate 2010 Kara? No, because they are completely different universes.

One more time: Completely Different Universes.

If I seem irritated, it's because I am. I don't see why we have to go around and around about this; 2010 is its own place and story with its own tone and events, and 200x should have its own place/story/tone/events. The characters should change from board to board, and they should have a different story and experience on each board. They don't cancel each other out, or contradict one another.

Some of us in 200x had some really awesome characters. I'd love to see some of them make the transition.

And no, 2010 may not be getting much out of the deal. Or there may be a backlash effect of people turning back to the old stories and going, "Hey, this would be fun." We don't know. Personally, if the creative energy of people is better in 200x, I don't want to block that. Let the migration occur. This idea has my vote.

If the people of 2010 are so put-out, they'll surely have something to say about this, right?

*crickets*

Right?

Where are they?