To my fellow writers to whom it may concern.

The powerset of the character I am about to introduce was originally made for a different character in a different game. There is a facet for which I sought and recieved approval for there but in the interest of the open book/check in with your peeps before introducing a customized idea I thougt I would go ahead and open a thread to discuss *before* i go and post my final pretty sheet.

With no more ado:

This character is based on the idea of a repulsion force field. In other words it doesn't just absorb and protect from damage, it actually will throw back anything that hits it.

To simulate this with the mechanics, I bought, in addition to the force field power, Ripple Shield, taken by itself and not part of a suite. To note, this is not a spatial manipulating effect, but the mechanics fit perfectly. In this case it applies to projectiles, bullets, energy blasts etc. that will just bounce back off the force field.

To simulate this same effect for hand to hand attacks, I bought a bashing immolate. Hit him and you fly back.

The part I would like to check in about is on a slightly expanded use of the enhancment: Irresistable Force. This enhancment improves the knockback capability of a characters strikes. The system for Knockback compares the damage total against the opponents might skill and may knock someone back even if they dont take damage from the attack. Very Cinematic. The enhancment adds what I call virtual or "ghost damage" only for the comparison for knockback.

What I would like to do with this character is to say that when Irresistable Force is activated, this ghost damage would apply to the Immolate as well, making the repulsion of the force field more powerful.

The cost would remain the same, 1 QP per +2 "ghost damage."

Any objections?

The snag is that enhancements can't link with powers, so with a defensive power theme like what you describe you couldn't activate the enhancement unless you forced the field onto someone else (as an attack action or example).

Personally, if it fits the theme and there is a mechanical way to get the effect you want without being totally cheezy about it then I say put it together and submit it to the mods. It's been stated several times that 200X not a Democracy, it's a Novacracy. We really don't have much say in what you do.

Slap together a strong concept, explain it in detail, much like you've done already, and submit it to the mods. They'll let you know what they think is best for 200X in relation to your character. That's the best advice I can offer.

I realize that it is an unusual request not covered by the rules as written. It seemed to me a reasonable tweak to make, but I wanted to follow appropriate ettiquetts and make sure it wouldn't rub anyone the wrong way. If it is deemed unacceptable i can live with that, but better to be safe than sorry when introducing a modified concept.

And thank you, I will alert the mods to this thread.

Oh yeah, and regarding activation:

This particular enhancment is active for a scene and Immolate is a maintenance power so for the duration of the immolate's activation, I would be applying a bonus equal to the number of quantum points spent x2 (as standard) to the "damage" of the immolate, again only for the purpose of determining knockback results. If approved that is.

Posting your idea here is the correct move. Let everyone have a chance to see the idea and discuss it first.

Looking at this, it's a brilliant idea, but I wonder if this is possble...

Can Bounce and Force Field be "linked"? (To borrow an M&M concept)

Any particular reason why you're not using Reflect/Redirect as the base power? Seems to me that it'd be the perfect skill to use. Add an Area Extra and you're good to go.

Bounce and force field could be linked, though bounce isn't the power I am going for.

Ripple Shield and Reflect/Redirect work very similar but the latter works as a power block. Ripple Shield mechanics work better since its a maintenance power to coincide with the force field. its a burn build thats for sure, especially if/when i get into spending points on Irresistable Force.

Also as an update, I spoke with Nova and we are going to give this discussion another day and then put it up to a vote. If you have any other questions or concerns for me please ask them here. In the meantime I have more wiki to wite!

A couple of Duration Strengths'd probably help you in that regard though, I'd've thought. Moving from Instant to Maintenance is only 2 Strengths, which (if I recall) is just over 1 dot of power. Add the Area Extra and you've got a perfectly serviceable Maintenance Reflect/Redirect that can defend multiple targets at once.

Admittedly, this is one interpretation of the Strengths rules. A quick double-check of the book tells me that it doesn't explicitly say that you can apply a Duration Strength to an Instant power, though I don't see why you couldn't, really.

There is still the problem that D/R is a power block power. Ripple Shield works as a defense even if say, you had no more actions that round, just the way a force field would.

Please no more suggestions about *other* powers. This thread is to discuss my particular build, not create new ones.

As described above, an enhancement and a power cannot be linked. The other writers are suggesting alternatives which would have a similar effect to what you desire and avoid this problem. That is definitely on-topic.

I'm sorry if people won't agree to rubber-stamp your idea, but sometimes people don't agree with you. In a cooperative setting, the burden is on you to create something which is agreeable to the others.

Let's keep discussing this.

Okay it looks like this needs clarification.

I am not asking about the Ripple Shield.

I am asking about if the knockback bonus from the enhancment can apply to the knockback created by the immolate.

People seem to be missing the point.

And yes I know this is not technically by the book but it is quite in theme and the book *does* allow for such things as modifying powers and enhancments, cross linking enhancments or powers to other attributes and even creating new powers or enhancments whole cloth if it is deemed appropriate by the storyteller.

For further consideration: There *is* a precedent of an enhancment that effects a power: enhanced movement stacks with Hypermovement.

Yes/No.

Yes. You may stack Irresistable Force with Immolate, in an attack fashion.

Example: You have Immolate active and punch me. I'd suffer the effects of both Immolate's damage pool as well as your Mega-Str and Irresistable Force.

No. If used in a defensive manner you may not apply the knockback bonus to Immolate because the Enhancement specifically states it enhances your attacks, not passive damage through the result of 'auras' or 'burning'.

Example: You have Immoalte active, I punch you. I suffer Immolate damage but it's because I got too close. I do not suffer knockback because the enhancement states it affects your attacks not mine.

You are mostly correct in a by the book sense Rev. However your example is slightly incorrect.

Someone striking an Immolate would take knockback if they didnt have much of a might skill total, since knockback effects can be applied to anything that does damage (with exceptions as noted in the book lethal attacks which do half knockback and common sense things like lasers and flamethrowers). You are correct in that under the RAW, the immolate would not benefit from the enhancment. However in the spirit of my theme and the precedents I listed previously I am asking the group if it would mind this customization.

I know I am not the first person here who has come up with an unusual way of looking at the mechanics in attempt to do something different.

Aside from arguing the rules, which allow for modifications, does anyone have a reason why I shouldnt have an immolate, that while not doing any more damage than normal, will throw an opponent back farther than normal?

It's not really up for debate if I'm right, now is it? RAW is all that matters when I'm answering a question about RAW, is it not?

The answer I gave is correct, Immolate is not affected by the enhancement. The question was never about standard knock back. If you'd like to split hairs please don't waste my time, I'm trying to help you by providing you with the answers you asked for. We're not discussing lasers and flame throwers. I kept my answer in line with the topic, Immolate, and the Enhancement.


Nova will do what Nova pleases, it's her forum. My opinions as a player really don't matter. No matter what we decide, she's the only one with the yes/no powers.

I'd just take it up with her.

Whoa! No need to be offended. I didnt realize you were taking normal knockback into account from the way you worded it.

And the reason it *is* up to debate is that the RAW aren't laws from god in stone. They have always been able to modified by players or STs wishing to do something out of the box.

Nova has assured me that I have done the correct thing in petitioning the group.

I don't have a problem with it. If we were talking rule interpretations then I'd probably side with Rev, but this discussion is about customizing a power. As such, I don't have a problem with what you are proposing. It doesn't do more damage and it is all about the theme/cinematic of the character rather than about numbers, so more power to ya (in the non mechanics sense).

No offense taken. Had I taken offense the post would already have been deleted by a mod, I assure you.

He did. I advised him to run it past everyone else, so that we'd all get a chance to look at it and comment. I don't know everything, and I don't know what's best for everyone all the time, so I like to get as much community input as I can. . .

then I put my foot down and make a decision! =D

I remember this character. As long as he doesn't have Permanent Ripple Shield this time I think it's fine.

No, no permanent powers or anything. In fact he will burn through juice incredibly fast at full power and cant maintain it for very long

That's true. Irr-Force is per attack in combat. He'd just bleed juice.

It's a little off but not unbalanced, I don't have a problem with it. Immolate is already an attack and Ir-F is build to do what he's using it for.

Actually it remains active for the scene., but you are correct in that he bleeds juice at full power, mostly due to the linkages I took which force him to pay through the nose for activation.

So it's a power that knocks people back?
That's it?

No extra damage, no "you're prone", no "meteors fall from the sky and strip you of your powers?"

Meh, cool beans.

I would approve it.

well the knockback/knockdown rules can leave you prone (as you might expect) and you can take some damage from being knocked through a building or into the ground (also as one would expect).

But it's standard knockback rules, right? Complete with Might resistance and all that fun joy?

Yes.

Although I should mention a common misconception is that Mega Str will help you resist knockback. According to the rules you compare with the targt's Might *skill* total, whereas M Str adds to damage and might *rolls*. In this case there is no roll.

Put another way is that just because you are strong doesnt mean you can keep your feet. On the other hand being denser or having growth (which also adds to weight) helps quite a bit. Immovable Object would work too.

Me no likee.

Fair enough Bill. Would you care to elaborate on a reason?

Enhancement+Powers=Bad precedent.

Yes, Enhanced Movement and Hypermovement, i understand. But basically those two were written in and basically are simply the same power stacked so as to allow the megasuperspeeds people expect from speedsters.

Thats a better answer, thank you. I can see why one would fear setting a precedent that would open things up for abuse. However isnt that the point of discussing these things on a case by case basis? With so many voices I doubt somethng egregrious is going to pass muster.

I would also like to add that after discussing the upper limit ramifications of my proposal with Mr. Fox, he deemed it acceptable, if that means anything to anybody.

Keep in mind that I'm not a rules lawyer and I don't claim to be an expert on the mechanics. The idea sounds alright to me, I'll let those with more expertise poke holes in it if they can. As a thematic addition to the character I think it is fine.

Okay, so superficially it looks like there is 2 votes for no and 4 qualified votes for yes (or at least not having problems with it) including one of the mods.

Lee Kirby and Sakurako seemed to like the genral concept but didnt speak as to my actual question so until they say otherwise they can be considered undecided.

Fox, you and I went over the mechanics with as much detail as it is possible to go into them. Do you require further clarification?

Sorry, since my knowledge of the rules isn't as deep, I really cannot vote on this question. I've never toyed with extras and what-not.

Fair enough. One abstention noted. Thank you for your reply.

So? Should I be impressed? Does a mods vote count as two or something? A vote is a vote, and considering that vote is from someone who gives second eruptions in the form 20+ NP awards for his characters I find it suspect. In my opinion he'd agree to anything spat out by the right person.

While there is nothing wrong with your concept, I'm all for customizing, I have to ask: Why do you need knock back so bad? Why does it have to be knock back and not just dramatic license that states when they hit you they fell over and just got back up?

Considering the enhancement lasts for a scene he wouldn't blow through juice quite as quickly as you're promising. He could spend 10QP and get +20 to knock back for the entire scene. The facts aren't presented accurately.

Not that'll be voting, frankly I don't care what you do.

??? Looking it up... you're right. My bad, it is per scene and not per attack.

True.

I'll vote that I'm pretty much against anything that mixes power and enhancements into a unifed action (stacking bonuses from seperate powers are different). The two are very different, and never should be allowed to co-mingle.

So I think that's a no, if I understand the mechanics of what The Fool is asking correctly.

I have to vote No for the reasons Vile Bill and Alexis gave.

Also, Knockback produces damage when you fly back into something, so Knockback sucks.

I'm really not comfortable with the precedent this would set. The concept itself is fine, but there are other, simpler ways to do it. I understand being attached to an idea, of course, but I would really have to oppose this particular build.

I didn't have a problem with the mechanics, however, I did qualify that by saying that I'm not the most qualified when speaking to the mechanics of it.


((PM to Rev))

Okay. To scome out more with my concept, the characters handle is Ricochet. He is all about making things fly back away when they touch him.



While you are correct, that I could do that it wouldn't last long on his immolate. With the power linkages I have set up it would drain nearly all his juice and in relation to the immolate it would die within a few rounds as it is a maintenace power. So in practice, spending that much would be overkill and unlikely unless he was in a desperate situation and going against someone with Density Increase, although I would point out the Ausrine and Kazuo would be incredibly immune to this use of the power.



Never is a strong word. Too strong in fact considering the previous precedent with Enhanced movement. The mechanics are well thought out and I will say more on that in a moment.



Knockback is a staple of the genre. Based on your statement I suppose that quantum bolts suck and Mega Stength sucks and for that mater, your characters aggravated kinetic claws suck. Can you the toungue in cheek here?



The only precedent this would set is that when peoploe want to customize or do something different with the mechanics that the mechanics didnt think of or expressly cover, people get to vote on it. I think all the arguments about precedents are bad ones and discriminatory. Having spoken with Vile Bill in chat, he was concerned that people down the line are going to use the "but he got to do it!" argument. He may be partially correct. For example, Revenant asked for, had a vote, and then implemented his idea for 2 characters in 1 with his shadow Revenant "Node switch." By the book? NO. Feasible in the setting? Yes.

Having said that, I trust the community that any outright abuses would surely be seen and pointed out. I truly believe what I am asking for is both in the spirit and scope of the rules of customization.

As to your other comment Fianna...There is no other way to do what I am proposing. With Immolates meager damage, the very most I could knowback a non-Sizemorphed (growth)/non-density increased character would be about 30 feet. With the mechanics of what I am proposing I would be able to knock someone back about 150 feet. A cinematic and plausible distinction that I am quite proud of.

Having said that, if you *do* know of a way to cause that much knockback from touching my character that is simpler, please do tell me.


I hope that everyone who has posted here will consider everything I have just said and realize that, while not strictly by the book, the book was written for our fun, and it was never meant to cover everything. It is my hope that I can still carry forth my concept, and a *good* precedent is set for peoples ongoing creativity.

Would a modification of my proposal be more possible? Saying maybe only the enhancment would only be half as effective when applied to the immolate? Since the force has to be spread around a greater area?

After talking privately with a few other writers it was suggested that I could create the effect I wanted through the creation of an extra, and that this would prove less offensive as it maintains the seperation between enhancments and powers.

So here is my revised proposal:

Immolate: New Extra: Repulsor Field

Description: The Nova creates a force field around their body that violently repels anything that comes in contact with it.

System: While the immolate does not inflict any more extra contact damage, its damage pool is considered to be doubled for the purposes of determining knockback. Damage acrued from being knocked back into the ground, people, or stationary objects is applied and soaked normally.

What happens around your feet? Immolate comes from the entire body, no?

Why Immolate?

If it's a repulsor field and a forcefield... wouldn't be more appropriate as a Force Field extra?

But ForceField doesn't cause damage. How would you figure out the knockback pool?

Yes it states in the power description that Immolate affects anything the nova touches.

As Bill said it wouldnt be a good extra for force field. The character has flight to avoid damaging surfaces he walks on. I suppose if he were to walk around it would simply do normal damage to whatever he is standing on, since its going to be hard to knockback something as dense as the ground. I would imagine if he steps on something fragil like say the second floor of a house and his immolate blows the floor away, the shrapnel from it is going to fly farther but thats more of a cinematic thing unless we want to get into framentation rules. Personally Id rather not and just keep it simple: the usual damage for standing on the ground with immolate.

I disagree.

Force Field: Nex Extra: Repulsor Field

Description: The Nova creates a force field around their body that violently repels anything that comes in contact with it.

System: The generated Force Field is able to repel any attack that fails to breech it. Any attack (ranged or melee) that inflicts less pre-soak damage than the bonus soak generated by the Force Field power is subjected to immediate knockback with a dice pool equal to (Power Rating + Quantum).

The defender does not get to choose in which direction the attacker or the repelled objects are sent.