+sighs+ It's just a fic guys... I'm not claiming to have it perfectly thought through - I just want to portray some aspects of the PC(s) that we haven't found the time in the game itself.

And... I felt like it was a good idea.

Hee hee, by this point none of this is really about the fic anymore. The fic is cool, keep it up.

That's why I said that Hitler gets more than his fair share of evil from history.

You could make a similar argument about President Buchanan (i.e. the South would break away from the North sooner or later), and even Bush (there's a strong argument a President Gore would have invaded Iraq). Similarly while Darwin was ahead of his time, evolution would have been discovered by the microscope's discovery of genes if nothing else. Ditto Bill Gates, & Gutenberg... someone else would have taken their role sooner or later.

Others are less clear. Einstein had an extremely unusual brain and he was dealing with things that to my eye don't have the weight of history behind. Ditto Marx, using the power of the state to make life better is obvious; Convincing everyone that forcing people at gun point to give up their farms will lead to more food is not. Bin Laudin founded Al-Quida, without his money and Charisma they probably wouldn't exist.

What level of proof do you want? Steve has the judgment of history and economics on his side.

Unfortunately that's not true. The entire economic community KNEW that Smoot-Hartley would put a "Great" in front of the Depression, more than 1000 of them signed a letter trying to stop Hoover from enacting it.

It is, and it's a good fiction. This is one of those discussions that pop up whenever the PCs have access to time travel.

Please carry on.

I'd say that if you're revolting against unrestrained capitalism (as it was practiced at the time), then the notion of public ownership is actually very intuitive. Marx originally predicted that communism was, in fact, the natural evolution of capitalism...that the innate imbalances of capital ownership would in time destabilize it as a system, leading to revolution and the establishment of communism as a post-capitalism economy. It was mostly those who came after Marx who decided to agitate for revolution sooner rather than later. The Soviet Union was -far- from a Marxist paradise.

Bin Laden started his career in terrorism being trained to fight Soviets in Afghanistan. His money and charisma had very little to do with his initial rise to power. It was his victories in Afghanistan that got him the 'street cred' among radical Muslims that he then used to create Al Quaida. Yes, money and charisma certainly helped, and it's certain that they were factors in why we chose him out of so many...but it didn't HAVE to be him.

And I don't bring all this up to minimalize the impact of personal choice. Just because, in a historical context, it didn't have to be Bin Laden doesn't change the fact that it WAS him, and he DID make the choices that he did. None of this exonerates Hitler and so on.

My only point is that historical forces are deeper and more complicated than a 'great man' approach will reveal. Tampering with them, via time travel, is therefore a risky and subtle game. I'm not even trying to say not to do it, really. I'm just saying that if you want to try to avert WWII, don't just lop Hitler's head off as a baby and expect that to cover it.

This has long been the claim, but *every* *single* *time* Marx's ideas have been attempted we've ended up with basically the same mess. Because Marx's ideas claimed to be perfect and because it was claimed paradise would result, it has been ignored that they have to be implemented at gun point and that they totally ignore basic human nature.

Maybe someone else would have stepped forward and come up with some of his ideas, but stripped of their "and paradise results" content maybe fewer people would have been willing to impose them at gun point.

So the guy with a billion dollars is off in a cave and it never occurred to anyone to maybe use some of that money and contacts to get more gear for everyone else?

Bin Laden's big role from day one was his money. I've never heard of any battle in which he took part, he was an organizer, not a warrior. He might have never picked up a gun during his entire stay there. His big contribution in Afghanistan (which was huge at the time) was paying for things. The groups he funded and worked with had victories which got him street cred (although this isn't my field).

Agreed. Hitler is a good example of history making the man.

lol...I think we're getting wildly off topic.

I think we seem to be more or less agreeing on the basic point though...which is that history is more complex than a list of names and dates.

Ulric will save the day. He's up in rotation. No need to worry.

Tesla. One man who made a major impact on history.

All the things he invented would have been invented without him, but the fact that he did them and did them so early hugely impacted the 20th century. Without his achievements things would not have progressed quite as quickly or probably as smoothly.

Another example. Spindletop 1901, the first major oil strike. (I grew up less than a mile from that location btw.) The guys who made their millions off that first oil boom made a conscious decision to keep the town from growing any larger. Beaumont Tx, had everything that Houston had in terms of resources, but had those resources 15ish years earlier. Had those guys not made that decision and prevented more business from coming in to town around the middle of the 1910-1920 decade, Houston would be a small town right now and Beaumont would be the 3rd largest city in the country.

Point is that not much would really be different from a global perspective but someone in that alternate timeline would be awefully puzzled if you started talking about Houston being a major city because small groups of people really can make a major difference over a long period of time especially with foreknowledge.

Think of it like a massive oil tanker. It only takes one guy to steer it. The changes he makes don't happen instantly though, it takes time for that big ship to be moved from it present course to another heading. Same with the characters messing with history. Little changes like eliminating a tyrant might be a small change and it might not immediately alter the course of history, but it can get that ship turning in a different direction.

WWII almost certainly would have happened without Hitler, but it might not have been recognizible to the observers who know the alternate history. Hitler make some serious mistakes that caused the outcome of the war to be what we know it to be. Without those mistakes it might have been very different.

To give another example, before WWI it was undecided what side America would enter the war on or even if it would enter at all. Had someone else been making policy and had the Lusitania and our shipping not been targeted the war might have gone differently. America was very much a deciding factor in the British/French winning.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that history could look a whole lot different as a result of minor changes if those changes happen to occur at the right place and time.

So wait...is this game still ongoing or what? Did I leave prematurely?

The main story is done. But Fox said he would keep it up if we wanted to move on with our own stories - and that's what I'm doing.

I vaguely recalled that you had no interest in doing such thing if there is no ST or audience around.

If you think you got something interesting to tell with Cody - why don't you make your own thread?

Invitations had been made before we set apart.

So is this or is this not still a moderated ST game?

I feel complete with Cody actually. Just thought maybe I could bring in a new character if y'all were still going at it...

I cannot speak for the others but my intent to merely to finish telling Andrew's tale properly and all him some closure; I don't anticipate that I'll continue this indefinitely.

I am still the ST. I am letting them tell their story to give them closure on the characters and just so they can enjoy themselves. If I feel it necessary I will step in as ST and specify the consequences of their actions if they don't seem to be doing a realistic job of it, but given the players involved, I doubt very seriously that such will be necessary. If they wish it I might also step in at some point and detail some things to add a little conflict into the story, but that will only be if they ask me to.

So no quantum computers in 1945 then I assume?

right.

no fun, Andrew never gets to have any fun ...

Dude ... bro, if we don't have them, the other guys don't either. Look on the bright side.

heh ... actually I'm pretty sure that M-Int 5 is probably faster anyways, especially if you double your brain mass and then clone yourself a dozen times ...

There is that too. Pity my poor M-Int. 5, all alone and cloneless.

At least you'll have each other to play chess with.

In case you guys been wondering - I'm somewhat busy with running two games atm. I will tend to the threads here once things have settled down again.

There is still stuff I want to do here.

Can you fit a brother in?

This game is not realy functioning, but we can talk to Fox and see if you can join one of the two side stories that were established after the main game died.

The game reached it's end point some time ago. There are still some alternate universe stories going on that you might get involved in if you want. Ask Fox.

Main game didn't die, it ended. There is a distinction.

As for the side games, I actually have a plan for a game and the Brave New World thread is the set up for it. Problem is that too many new games are starting right now and I don't feel this is the right time to propose mine. Chosen has already approved me to run it assuming I get players and will create the boards, but I think if I call for players right now it will die. I'm going to wait a month or two and see where things stand. Now if people want me to run it and there is a call for it to happen I'll go with it now, I just don't want to see it get buried beneath all the craziness of Scion, oWoD, and Carver's other new game that hasn't been officially announced yet.

Really? Will there be a reunion of characters?

I'll keep an eye out. I'm mostly interested in the Aberrant stuff.

Sorry WR. Steve, Morgan and the two NPCs are the only old characters and they would be the antagonists. All the new characters would be from the world they are on and trying to liberate the world from the 4 and their stifling rule.

Honestly - I think I'm done in LM - even if I'd finish the fic I started (which I eventually will) it'll be the last thing I'm doing here.

It was great as long as it lasted, though. Who knows what comes next some day? I am myself thinking about one or two games I'd like to ST but right now is not the time.

I'm pretty much done with Andrew. I really couldn't think of anything more to do with that PC in this system and world. He's pretty much reached the apex of his power theme and conquered taint ... yeah, he's good to retire

Yeah, I knew how you guys felt about it. It's only Steve, Morgan, Lorean and Amber on that world. If/when the game happens it will be those four vs the new PCs, done in two separate forums so that the two groups are reacting blind to each other so that there will be no meta gaming. I as the ST will be the only one able to read both forums. After things were resolved I would make everything public for others to read.

The idea is that Steve, Morgan et all think they are doing the world a favor by making it better for humanity and they are. But at what price? And how would you react if you were a nova that erupted in that world that the Four had shaped? Would you be happy with the restrictive culture? With the genetic compatibility lists from which you are expected to pick your mate? Or any of the other 'improvements' that have been set down for humanity to abide by?

Btw, nice new Avvie Joani.

Anyway that's the basic premise. If or when I make the solid proposal to start the game I'll let everyone know.

ULRIC!

Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying the extensions of our universe here.

On behalf of Andrew and myself, thanks very much. Good to hear feedback. I have to say, I've also been enjoying Andrew's Delta earth story as well. Very touching.


You guys are welcome to write more. Incidentally, Steve, I think Brave New World is pretty much done, so if you want to do anything with Steve and Amber you are welcome to. You can even advance your character since you allowed me to use him as an NPC for 1000 years. Get with me over PM for details if you want.

For the record, if anyone wants to write in the LM universe and don't already have a character please feel free to get with me over pm. I don't guarantee any ST run stories, but it is a universe rich with potential.

You can even advance your character since you allowed me to use him as an NPC for 1000 years.

Thank you but no. Part of the charm of Steve was I wanted to show what was possible with a Q1 character. He ran with the gods and was useful and functional even compared to the team powerhouses.

When I remember him, I'd rather think of him as Q1 that he was and not the Q10 nova he's going to become after that amount of time.

Q10 is only 360 exp away, he has a thousand years, and he's starting with the answers on how to get to Q10 including immunity to taint. He has all the underlying skills/megas/powers/etc that he would need to justify getting more quantum and the only reason he wasn't advancing before was fear of taint and it's long term problems.

He'll make it... and that's a good enough stopping point for him.

Thanks guys, it's nice to hear that they are being read; gives me reason to continue.

Awesome fic, Andrew. Made me shiver.

Just for the record so that people don't think the basic setting has changed. Andrew's story Delta Earth is non-cannon for the game. A most excellent fic that I quite enjoyed, but non-cannon.

The Watchers are a race of Q10 novas with millions of years of experience who even if the story were cannon would still be able to infinitely clone themselves and find a way to get around what the infinite Andrew's have done. It might take some effort but they could do it.

Incidentally, If anyone is interested in writing in the LM universe you are welcome to do so. You can consider the Universe an Open World with me as the ST. I can't promise I will throw plot at you, but I will read what you do and work with you while you play in the LMverse. And heck, if your story and character are interesting I might just give you some active plot to play with.

technically you are enjoying it, unless you intend to lock the thread and prevent me from continuing with the last couple of bits.

*claps* I just finally got a chance to read up on your fic for Andrew. Well done, I'm really enjoying reading it. Keep up the great work!

thanks, almost done, maybe 1 or 2 more posts

I'll second that for Andrew, for Fox too btw.

Bravo Andrew! Very nicely done and a great ending for a great character.

Given the potential splitting of the multiverse into another branch I can even consider that cannon.

Thanks again.