A fascinating question. I find myself thinking Utopia would surely confiscate the materials involved as being "highly sensitive to society." It also occurs to me that the intial commercial return would be far outweighed by capital investment into pie in the sky research.

This leads me to conclude that anyone actually engineering such a feat would have to have concerns other than monetary and would have little reason to advertise their research or discoveries.

Of course. Not a single Nova of considerable intellect has managed this feat, not even on paper. Not even scribbled down on notes between a nice recipe for Eggplant Lasagne and a Sanskrit poem about cheese. Never happened.

The comercial applications of an affordable FTL drive, and/or a Warp Gate system are enormous.

I think many novas have looked at the question. Have any of them taken their theories off the drawing boards ... not sure.

After all, publish one on the opnet, or put it in the hands of a major industrial government, and the world changes.

Either a terribly self-interested nova has actually developed a feasible one, or none has been invented. That's my semi-educated guess.

Of course but does the conceivable gains outweigh the capital investment in research when little indicates even the feasibility of the act?

James' comments may well be in jest but are indicative of the mindset that would attempt the feat in these circumstances.

James' comments may well be in jest but are indicative of the mindset that would attempt the feat in these circumstances.

Precisely. While Prodigy may be the brightest one out there, he certainly isn't the only one. How many novas research things without thought to the commercial applications, or without it being their primary motivation?

Or how many of us have come up with technologies, then slapped ourselves on the heads and realized Novas can do whatever the technology was designed to do themselves and then discarded the plans simply because it wasn't necessary?


Oh, and Jager, not the brightest. My meager intellect pales against some I could name.

You know Jager..I have a pay that you would kill for.In fact if you had this pay, more than a few people would be killed.

You know Jager..I have a pay that you would kill for.In fact if you had this pay, more than a few people would be killed.

Pay?
Please, don't presume to know what I will kill for. It's rude, and will just make you look stupid.

Signy, you don't want Jager to look stupid. You wouldn't like him when he thinks you made him look stupid.

Huh? I'm not really worried about Signy making me look stupid. Foolish, perhaps, but not stupid.

Apologies if I stray back onto the original topic - and even more so if I repeat what's already been said - but my interpretation of the Null Manifesto is simply not to pander to the existant baseline society.

If any of this has been said before, please choose to blame it on the endless sidetracking comments in the discussion rather than my meandering thoughts.

Don't fight for baseline morals, motivations or gain in Kashmere and elsewhere. Don't squander your talents for money as an Elite. Don't make baseline crowds "ooh" and "aah" because you can make new years fireworks seem tame with a click of your fingers. Don't waste your mind in order to increase ratings, up profit or get people to "Buy American!"

"I beseech all members of the One Race to follow the path that will take them to a better understanding of who and what they are.... We must explore what it is to be novas, not for the betterment of the human race, but for the betterment of the nova race. Perhaps there are some novas who prefer to stay with the baseline herd for the warmth and comfort it provides. I say obtain your warmth from equals. We are destined to make a strange and terrible journey, and this we cannot do alone. While each nova must walk their own path, we must gather and share our knowledge and our companionship."

Break the programming. Use your mind to figure out what you - we - are, and are becoming. Every Nova whose life is wasted in the pointless and demeaning struggle in far flung countries - struggles in which baseline lives are rarely if ever risked these days, whereas an endless stream of Novas pour their potential away - is a Nova who cannot share their experiences, their knowledge, their awareness with the newly erupted or those who seek to find why their destinies have brought them these amazing and terrifying new powers. Any of the Novas killed in Kashmere, or in incidents when they were attempting to perform duties which for decades have been performed adequately by baseline rescue teams, could have been the one to make a difference - to lead us to peace or away from baseline society. So many lives have been lost, and so much potential wasted, by being used as tools and playthings by the rest of society - and allowing ourselves to be used as such.

We -are- a new race. We are human and more. Unless there's a break from tradition, a break from the rules and regulations of baseline society which may (or admittedly, may not) restrain our progress, then we're doomed to being humanity's playthings and spectacles for the rest of our extended lives.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't like being a circus freak. That's what we're becoming.

"I bear the truth and a warning.[...] a goal impossible while abiding by the strictures and limitations set by beings who are not our peers and who cannot accurately judge what is "ethical" or "moral" for anything other than their own kind. As such, the laws and governing bodies established for the purpose of governing Homo sapiens must be considered inapplicable to Homo sapiens novus. Until a common governing body, composed entirely of novas qualified to hold authority, is recognized by the majority of the nova population, then it is the duty of novas to govern themselves as they see fit.

"We are each our own nation; to be nova is to transcend the baselines from which we evolved. We want only to live in accord with the promptings of our true selves. We exist beyond human comprehension, and while we have yet to define our own laws, we must have the freedom necessary to chart our own course. Only those novas too lazy or too comfortable to think for themselves, to judge and regulate their own behavior accordingly, obey baseline laws. True members of the One Race sense their own laws within them; things are forbidden to them that a common baseline will do any day of the year, and other things are allowed to them that are generally despised. Each nova must stand their own."

I'll emphasise one part of that second paragraph. True members of the One Race sense their own laws within them; things are forbidden to them that a common baseline will do any day of the year, and other things are allowed to them that are generally despised. Each nova must stand their own.

Mal - to me - is not saying we can run amok and murder baselines willy nilly. That's plain stupid, and if there's one thing you can say about Divis Mal and be 100% certain about it, it's that he isn't stupid.

Every Nova has morals, guiding principles which they won't break. For some they're very similar to baseline laws, be it due to brainwashing pre-eruption or just their principles and ideas of how Novas should act. Given that the vast majority of law codices were written well over a century before the Galatea exploded - should intellectual property and patent laws prevent a superintelligent Nova taking a baseline idea and improving it? Should employment law prevent a Nova who does not need to eat, breathe or sleep from working around the clock to complete his life's masterpiece?

Who hasn't broken a speed limit, or double parked, and thought that the laws were there for people who couldn't drive as well or wouldn't be driving away as quickly as you? Who in Southern America hasn't copulated in strange places, positions or condiments? Find me a baseline who hasn't broken these laws, and I'll find you ten who have, and who do.

Pre-T2M crime statistics showed that much of the baseline population thought twice before obeying laws which they felt did not apply to them... why should we, a species seperate from that which wrote the laws which we are bidden to follow, be any different?

Snake James,your words seem wise,but they lack many things.I could list reasons why your world would be a great place to live in,and I could tell reasons why it will never happen.

I do not pretend to know who are,but I will wager that when you were learning to read,I was working on my first of many pile it highers and deepers.I wrote a book "Civilized people are not civilly obedient".It was mass published in 97.Now, let me make this clear, it basically states that any state ran by the letter of the law,is doomed to fall victim to necessary scape goats.


But let's get back to the Null Manifesto.When I was younger,I came to this truth that it is easy to point out the faults in the way things are,and were.It is hard to find a way to make things better. Wile,I can laugh and snicker at the flaws of normal governments, it is hard for me not to laugh at the idea of novas being nations states on their ownselves.I could go on,and I am sure you wouldn't mind,but I have more pressing matters to deal with.

Signy - you might well be right about my age and your literary history, though how it applies to my interpretation of Divis' words evades me.

Everyone thinks of the Teragen of the Null Manifesto and of Geryon. One must lead to the other, right? It could hardly be more wrong, in my view. The Manifesto does not advocate GERYON SMASH, it does not advocate killing baselines, it does not advocate Novas breaking laws left right and centre just because Divis Says So.

Mostly because he doesn't.

What it does advocate is thought before action. We are different. We do have different potentials, strengths and yes, weaknesses. We will require consideration if baselines want to enforce their centuries-old laws on a pretty much brand new species and way of life.

People's misinterpretations of the Null Manifesto often stem from their perceptions of the Teragen. We are not the great evil which most seem to believe we are. The Manifesto is not a cry for anti-baseline violence, it is a plea for independant thought.

You,should read more,the Null Manifesto,only advocates two things new.One that novas,and only novas should be treated as nation states,and two that Novas are not human.

My book,The problem is Civil obedience,People's rights, Life worth living....And more advocate the disregard of laws that do not serve any reasonable stance.

As for calling the teragen evil.That would be putting words into my moulth.Not very friendly.But I will say this,the world was not ready for them,and now most likely never will.

I say this,the spirit of the law has to change,more than the letter of it.For starters,I can kill thousands of people, and not break a law.Money let's you do a lot of things.But legally speaking,I can't open up a medical clinic and use all the ideas I have,to save lives.Go figure that one out.

"One that novas,and only novas should be treated as nation states"

You're picking one line from the entire document, and treating it as if it summed up the entire Manifesto - which it doesn't.

The nation state comment is, as I see it, a metaphore. The sovereignty of each Nova - the right for each Nova to live as an individual without outside interference - is something which is compared to the early movements towards a global governing body... which eventually turned into the UN.

The world not ready for the Teragen?

As a Terat, I'm somewhat bemused. In what way is the world not ready for me?

Misster Jenkins,one day you may understand what I have to say,that day is not today.

Greetings, Snake.

You're picking one line from the entire document, and treating it as if it summed up the entire Manifesto - which it doesn't.

Not disagreeing with you, but can you see why others would see it that way?

The nation state comment is, as I see it, a metaphore.
Curious. Why do you consider it a metaphor?

The sovereignty of each Nova - the right for each Nova to live as an individual without outside interference - is something which is compared to the early movements towards a global governing body... which eventually turned into the UN.

One thing that baseline laws, society, and tradition do is set a value on life. I don't always agree with said values, but they are there.
Without that legacy to call upon, why is Geryon wrong?
Why would it be wrong to kill something that is not of your race?
Why would it matter at all?

It is an assumption, based on baseline tradition, that we would even think of ourselves as a race, or that other members of that race would have value to us.
How do you feel about that?

Divis Mal did say, but not in such an inflamitory way, that we could slaughter and destroy at will, if that is what we feel we should do.
Now, was he wrong for saying it?
If we are not accountable to anyone but ourselves, what, if any, limitations do we have?

Let's face it mate. Mal was being bloody irresponsible. It's not like he or any of his fanboys have come up with any decent plans for a new Nova Society. All I hear is this "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" crap.

Fine, advocate personal responsibility, that's dandy. But what pisses me off is goons like Nova Vigilance stomping on people for, example, trying to prevent some Terat bullyboy from "achieving his personal evolution" by mentally torturing baselines. Seems Nova Vigilance are just acting like a bunch of legbreakers who're using fear to force everyone (baseline and Nova alike) to submit.

Come on all you Terats, I'm all ears for how your new world order is going to work. Surely some of you are smart enough to explain it to a rent-a-thug like me. I'm not voting for someone just because he's got more sodding juice than anyone else.

Good day Jager, and Sphere.

Jager-
Yes, I can fully understand why people see it that way. Indeed, that is a large part of the reason I chose to step forwards and speak rather than hope that Novas would see past that idea and read the Manifesto with that set aside.

When someone like Divis steps forward and says something, especially when the baggage created by Geryon and NV is hanging on his every word, people will look for things to scaremonger. One of the frustrating things about the Manifesto is that it's so open ended. You can read anything into it, and I may well be completely wrong with what I interpret from Mal's words.

But equally, I think those who see it as a license to cause mayhem with no comeback are reading only what they want to read. Divis Mal is not that short sighted.

One thing that baseline laws, society, and tradition do is set a value on life. I don't always agree with said values, but they are there. Without that legacy to call upon, why is Geryon wrong? Why would it be wrong to kill something that is not of your race? Why would it matter at all?

Without that legacy to call on, surely it is up to Novas to decide as a race what is and what is not acceptable. Which is a large part of Mal's Manifesto - be judged by your peers.

I don't want to get into the whole "is Geryon wrong (or how wrong is Geryon)" debate, but there's a number of examples in baseline history of freedom fighters/political activists (or terrorists and insurgents if you're on the other side of the gun) using brute force to highlight their cause. Various independance wars, apartheid, civil liberties, emancipation - take those struggles and apply them not to a gender, colour of skin or ethnic origin, but to a race currently being used as tools by an inferior species.

(I use the term 'inferior' in terms of power and capability, in case anyone is offended).

Like it or not, it's inevitable with or without the Null Manifesto that Novas will react with violence. Some may use it as an excuse, but I can't see Geryon being anything but Geryon with or without the Manifesto.

Ultimately, people can see whatever they'd like in Mal's words.

In his appeal for Novas to judge within themselves what is acceptable, it could be a suggestion for Novas to only stop killing when they feel like it.

In his call for a Nova-recognised governing body, he could be calling for a self policing Nova society - with enforced 'natural selection' removing the unwanted and unpleasant side of Nova behaviour.

He could also be laying the foundations for creating a Nova state, with no baseline presence allowed.

He could be advocating a complete removal of Novas from baseline society for Novas to develop their understanding (and powers) away from the daily bread of Utopia and the anti-Terat, anti-Nova independance press.

While to some it will doubtless be a license to kill, to others (myself included) it has been a thought provoking document which achieved, in my opinion, what it intended.

I've presented my take on the Manifesto, but I'm more than aware that it takes more than my words to sway people or make them consider what I've said more deeply than what they currently hold true.

Sphere-

I have no new world order. Current Nova attitude isn't one which would fit within a Nova state. We're too individualistic. Too ingrained in baseline morals and schools of thought to make a Nova state anything but a mirror image of a baseline political structure. Which would really defeat the point.

What the Terat can offer, as we can to anyone, is a life without serving the baseline bread train.

Ex-soldier with fearsome post-eruption combat skills? We can use you, and not with Geryon's Nova Vigilance. We can find you a place where you won't be sold to baseline companies to defend their interests - interests which in no way, shape or form involve the benefit of you or your fellow Novas.

DeVries and other Elite agencies commit a great evil each time they send Novas to die, and that is more black and white than anything written in the Manifesto. The Elite agencies have surely killed more Novas than Geryon and Nova Vigilance have killed baselines - and yet they are seen as a rather benign organisation which people should join to get a job.

Super intelligent? We can find a place for you which doesn't involve wadding the pockets of some baseline kingpin with more cash than he can ever hope to spend, or digging through interminably baseline laws to fight off a civil rights case against a monstrosity of a multinational corporation.

Charismatic and quick witted? Rather than sell your soul on daily television or become a vapid Social Elite, I'm sure the Count can find you a job.

If you fear Utopia's goals, if you don't want to check into an M-R facility and give them enough DNA information to create tailored ammunition, and if you see the Directive as even worse - then look into the Teragen, and look beyond Geryon. It can't hurt to investigate the alternatives.

Am I the only non-terat nova in the world who see Geryon as doing the right thing?

Do whatever your soul tells you,but don't do that.You are prefect,and can do no wrong, but only when you fallow me.We are all Equal,some are just MORE Equal,than others.

Now, if I am wrong Epoch,the number 2 ellite in the world is TERAGEN!He works with DeVries.

"despite that he saw blatant similarity
he struggled to find a distinctive moiety
all he found was vulgar superficiality
but he focused it to sharpness
and shared it with the others
it signified his anger and misery

them and us
lobbying determined through a mire of disbelievers
them and us
dire perpetuation and incongruous insistence
that there really is a difference
between them and us

hate is a simple manifestation
of the deep-seated self-directed frustration
all it does is promote fear and constrenation
it's the inability
to justify the enemy
and it fills us all with trepidation

them and us
bending the significance to match a whimsied fable
them and us
tumult for the ignorant and purpose for the violence
a confused loose alliance forming
them and us

I heard him say
we can take them all
(but he didn't know who they were,
and he didn't know who we were.
and there wasn't any reason or
motive, or value, to his story,
just allegory, imitation glory,
and a desperate feeble search for a friend) "

Am I the only non-terat nova in the world who see Geryon as doing the right thing?"

I find his actions ethically reprehesible, but I do agree that NV has one of the most intelligent and successful Terat approaches to dealing with humans (baring, perhaps, Pandemonium).

By establishing reliable negative consequences to threatening novas, they do us something of a favor. I would rather not be done that favor, but that's just me.

(Also, I'm sure we can all see considerable potential for backlash from those tactics.)

Signy: Do whatever your soul tells you,but don't do that.You are prefect,and can do no wrong, but only when you fallow me.We are all Equal,some are just MORE Equal,than others.

Who are you talking about?

Signy: Now, if I am wrong Epoch,the number 2 ellite in the world is TERAGEN!He works with DeVries.

I know who Epoch is, I have even seen him. I have no idea if he is a Terat. I have heard that terat-like ideas are pretty common among elites.

No.
Were there other things he could have done, but the moment they stomped all over Sluice, the rule of law went out the window.

Young boy,I demand that you stop lying,and miss using my name .If I had the time,I would see you in court for this.

Snake, I erupted with those fearsome combat skills you mention. Don't use them for elite work though, never liked the idea of fighting in some stupid brush war just so the world's got something better than reality tv shows to watch.

I'm working with the Aberrants currently. What they're doing seems to make more sense than dying for a DeVries wage, or cutting myself off from the rest of the world like the Teragen want. They've got a purpose. Sort bloody Utopia out and get it working right.

I'm not getting into the whole "Novas are human. No they're not. Yes they are" circular argument. But we're all sentient, don't that count for something?

Not hardly.

The one race isn't all hand wringers waiting their turn to say "mother may I". Some don't have the courage to do more than muddy the trail when quisling pieces of trash try to kiss ass with the chimps but a few have what it takes to go the distance. You're not alone Renard.

Don't be sucked into that human/not human coffee house garbage. How dense can anybody be? We're novas and they aren't. That's what the crunch is going to come down to.

Yet another example of " enlightened evolution" from the good people at Team Anti-Tomorrow.

Bunch of thugs with quantum. I'd like you guys if you weren't all such tossers. Come and bully baselines whilst I'm around, then you see sodding evolution in action.

Don't be sucked into that human/not human coffee house garbage. How dense can anybody be? We're novas and they aren't. That's what the crunch is going to come down to.

Hey, Charr.

Coffee House Garbage, eh?
Well, when some monkey-loving quisling decorates your corpse with their quantum expression, I will keep it in mind that you held the philisophical high ground.

I consider novas, and their relationships with baselines to be very important.
Loving your roots, your family, and your background doesn't make you a quisling; it makes you a sentiant being.
Ignore the motivation at your own peril.

When its crunch-time, isn't our feelings about baselines going to be the thing that matters?
Consider it.


But we're all sentient, don't that count for something?
It matters to some of us, Sphere, but not all.

Old Woman said (hope I got it right this time):"Young boy,I demand that you stop lying,and miss using my name .If I had the time,I would see you in court for this. "

Ooops! A slight shortcut in my overused brain caused this. Don't get all hot over it. My apologies to Ghetto Funk Baby for mixing you up with this old bag.

Old Woman, you can never make me stop lying.

You would not see me in court, no matter how hard you try to sue me. Besides, why would you want my clothes (that is, the sum of my possessions)?

Take note, I won't miss using your name. From here on, whenever I type Old Woman you know to whom I refer.

Heh. Team anti-Tomorrow. That gets funnier every time I hear it.

You can have a title shot any time you want Sphere. We'll have to wait until you're finished with soccer practice and see if mom lets you come out to play. Give your coach a big hug and ask him what he thinks of Utopia now.

"A" lister. Standards must be slipping a little over on the island.

"Well, when some monkey-loving quisling decorates your corpse with their quantum expression, I will keep it in mind that you held the philisophical high ground."
That would be the monkey loving quisling that wants me dead immediately? As opposed to the ass kissing chimp loving quisling that wants to have me fill out their questionaire before deciding if they want me dead or if I'm a "good" nova?

Intellectual masturbation must be twice the fun of real sex judging by how many like to get it on. Let me break it down. We aren't them, they aren't us. I never burned a zip for being a bigot or stupid. Its a different story when they've try to lowjack us, force us into an RF, imprision us or outlaw us. When crunch time comes the zips are going to makes choices. I want it clear beyond any possibility of misunderstanding exactly how bad "bad" really is. Utopia doesn't care, baseline governments don't care and daddy doesn't care no matter what he tells you to your face.

I do. W go to the wall for the one race not just "good" novas.

Well, how sodding scientific of you Charr. Bloody hell, I see it now. We MUST be a separate species because you say so. Nicely proved there doc. Quick let's all run around worshiping Mal, possibly the laziest wannabe messiah the world has seen!

I'm not too happy about certain countries policies regarding baselines. But then I wasn't too happy when I heard about that Terat nonce Lash melting his entire family into one big sticky lump. Real evolved mate. I wasn't too happy when I read Shrapnel's little synopsis on her "baseline solution". As far as I can see the only difference between Utopia and the Teragen is the target of choice and the fact that they've got their sh*t organised better.

"We go to the wall the One Race, not just "good" Novas." As long as the One Race does what you want, right?

By the way, chum. It's called football, not soccer. What they've got on the other side of the pond is rugby with armour.