Slattern: I have replied to you by PM.

Preston: I am fairly new to the Teragen, and Slattern is doing a better job of explaining matters than I was or could. That said, I can support her point on willingness to help others; Vanguard asked nothing in return for introducing me to The Other, who in turn asked nothing in return for sharing a great storehouse of knowledge and experience with me. As I mentioned before, there is some underlying "selfishness" to these acts -- even if it is just because it makes them feel good to help others -- but for the sake of argument, I am willing to let that particular thread of logic fall by the wayside.

Not really, Slattern. I imagine your viewpoint on Teras will be as different as Vanguard's is from Count Orziaz's. Ashnod has never discussed her beliefs in Teras with me.

Agreed. I am here to ask honest questions and to learn.

Teras is a viewpoint of existence for novas that allows them to focus on their perceived 'nova-ness'  as it relates to their interaction with the world about them, as well as providing a framework for spiritual/quantum development.
It has little to do with a novas relationships with baselines, save that we should not act as if we are one.

The Teragen defies easy description. It is so inclusive that it allows wildly divergent viewpoints and activities. Your unifying factors seem to be an acceptance of your 'nova-ness', a general dislike/hatred/disrespect for Project Utopia (depending on whom I am talking to), and a certain level of reverence/respect for Divis Mal.


I am not looking to be converted. What I am looking for is a higher level of understanding. I can and have read the Koran, so I have a decent understanding of Islam. I remain a Catholic.
In case there is a misunderstanding, I know I am a nova. I do not feel that my desire to partake in, and contribute to, baseline existence is necessarily right for anyone but myself. It is what I want to do.

TimeSlip, it is the fact that you are a recent convert that I find the most promising.
I do not want to challenge your beliefs, but to understand how you came to accept Teras as what was right for you.

Is the whole concept of the Teragen selfish? Not really, the Teragen is about Novas looking after each other.

But what of other species? I personally do quite a lot to help out animals and plants. I can also use these actions to aid in what I see as my spiritual growth. Kills two birds with one stone

If you know your next step is likely to crush millions of creatures be they human or not do you do it? Every time I move I crush thousands if not millions of bacteria. I am aware they are alive but what can you do? We live in a universe like this. We may try and mitigate our negative impact but it isn't our fault that the universe is this way.

You burn. You want to burn more. Would you burn the world? If you could? What stops you from doing so? If nothing else then some gob-shite Nova might say, "You know what, I quite like this world, burn it if you really must but do you mind waiting until I've transplanted all the interesting lifey stuff and everything to some other planet/universe?"

It seems to me if you are completely inward focused you couldn't have a culture period. Fortunately every now and again Novas can communicate with each other, although it is rare sometimes they can actually agree on something for long enough to get things done.

I may be using humour to get a point across but it's worth adding that I'm not trying to be flippant here.

Are you familiar with the old saw, "you cannot love another until you love yourself"? For me, it's something similar to that. I was at rather gross odds with myself prior to converting, largely due to Taint and what was starting to seem an inevitable overload thereof; now, I'm getting a handle on myself (so to speak), am figuring out what I need to do for my own personal development, have a much better understanding of Taint and how to use it as a positive force in my development, and as such am one hell of a lot happier than before.

Thank you, TimeSlip. That does help.

Well, tell me how you think it is? I could point out that, Utopia is selfish in it's own way.I could point out that being selfish is a trait,and it is not always a bad thing. But I will first like to know why you think it is selfish before I go into anymore details,than I have already have.

Alright. And what is your confusion? The description is fairly broad but not particularly innaccurate.


Less Project Utopia specifically and more the general attitude of Project Utopia. But again, nothing outrageous in your description. Now, you've expressed some dissatisfaction with Teras and/or the Teragen. Please expand on your dislike and perhaps we can discuss those areas.

Teras is about the self. That is self-centered, if not exactly selfish. The two are similar, but not exactly the same.

Wow.

And it was from someone working for Project Utopia.

Double wow.

Okay, the fifth age of the world is now officially over and we can get on with whatever comes next. Man, but I never thought I'd see this.

Slattern, I find it hardly productive to separate novas from baseline humanity and then tell the novas that they not only can, but should, ignore the laws and customs of the people around them.

The Teragen promote the idea that there will be a race war. It does not actually support the idea that every nova is responsible only to and for themselves. It takes no stance in how a nova should interact (or not interact) with baselines, yet reacts violently when baselines react with hostility toward novas.

The Teragen and its underlying philosophy is going to get a lot of novas and far many more baselines killed.
I take these following points as a given (please contradict me if you disagree):
-Certain novas will misuse the "ignore baseline laws and customs" clause to their own personal advancement, to kill and maim baselines for their own purposes.
-The Teragen will in some fashion react to attempts to contain novas from being free to "explore" their desires.
-Any actions to counter these individual terats draws larger terat intervention.

So, you are not a group until individual members draw down an outsiders wrath upon you. As I read the Sphere-TimeSlip exchange, I can not help but see that it means less and less to more and more novas and baselines what is done to "offending" novas. That is a horrifying concept to me, to no longer care about the rights of anyone based solely on their philosophy of living.
Still, I see the Teragen leading us all inexorability to war.

If given a choice between being a Utopian, a Terat, or independent, I would really rather be independent. I would like to be free to defend and protect baseline humanity as a policeman. I do not see the Teragen leaving me free to pursue that goal.

Self-centered and selfish can often go hand-in-hand. I was merely pointing out that they weren't the same.

I have no personal issues with Terats like Raoul Orzaiz - rather interesting that he shows no sign of Taint - and can even reluctantly admire Bridgett Caulder in New York with her work in apprehending psychopaths.

But they are the Sinn Fein to the Teragen's IRA - supporters of terrorists and terrorist acts.

So yes, the Teragen are frequently selfish and inherently self-centered.

Slattern, I find it hardly productive to separate novas from baseline humanity and then tell the novas that they not only can, but should, ignore the laws and customs of the people around them.

1) Incorrect. The Null Manifesto says this, and more specifically, it is saying that baseline law is inapplicable to novas because it was written by baselines for baselines. It says nothing that a nova government will create no similar laws for its people. As there is no current nova government, there is no nova law, hence the problem. The Teragen is NOT responsible for creating said nova government, by the way.

If said nova government, once created, decides that every nova should ignore all current baseline established laws while interacting with baseline society, then your claims have validity. Until then, you are voicing your fears, but not necessarily the Teragen's intent.

Ashnod, in my experience in dealing with various terats, the Null Manifesto has been placed before me as a centerpiece of Teragen belief. Is this incorrect?
Certainly the Teragen's way of looking at things is one method. Another would be that it was a group of laws produced by terrestrial sentients for terrestrial sentients in matters pertaining to difficulties they currently faced. Now that there are a new set of circumstances surrounding a new group of terrestrial sentients, laws should be reviewed and expanded were necessary.
The Null Manifesto exorts novas to rebel against current baseline laws and customs, yet gives nothing to replace them. It calls upon each nova to govern themselves. It is the inherent abuse of this call to self-government that I see as the source of great pain and sorrow.
One way to look at it is a call to accepting self-responsibility and to accountability for one's actions.
Another viewpoint is to do whatever you can get away with.
Since neither the Null Manifesto or the Teragen provide guidance for nova behavior, we are defaulting to the rule of force.

I do not mean to imply that the Teragen is by any means the only source of nova-baseline problems. They are not. I do not believe them to be. I do believe they are both a problem now, and going to become more of a problem as time progresses.

What does that make me?

First off, please understand that the Teragen are all individuals, with individual viewpoints and individual lives. I am one of these individuals an all I am doing is offering my opinion. Give it no more weight than that.

We as Novas are new. We are not baselines. That has a much deeper meaning than "we have really kewl powerz and baselines don't." We are not baselines. When some of us talk about human beings not following monkey law it is not an attempt to be condescending to humans. It's an attempt to illustrate a point.

How about I try this. If aliens suddenly landed on Earth, would you be suprised and upset if they did not have anything in common with humans and human law? Now, yes, we did come from humans, but our lives are so drastically different that our world views, our reactions to the world around us are going to be dragged kicking and screaming away from the human archtype. Now, which would be better: If we embrace a movmement that will move us away from the human with purpose and with direction or we as individuals dealing with these changes and shocks to the system with no help or direction?

The Terats I've spoken with that speak of upcoming race war do so because they see Novas around us not embracing who they are. It is this denial combined with the inevitable schism that is going to occur between the baseline thinking novas desires and their reality. Novas who experience Taint without direction, Novas whose only assistance with Taint are those Project Utopia types who look upon them as failures who want to lock them away. It is from this that the war can come.

As for the Teragen as a group and "mis-using" the freedom from baseline law right there we need to address something. We are not human, and as we are not human we are not bound by human morality. Some of us will adopt a moral structure that does not consider murder to be inherently wrong. That isn't something you get to argue. It isn't you that has to make that choice, others have. And so long as you keep to baseline moral systems you're not going to be able to feel anything other than antipathy towards us.


As for the march to war, I suspect it will be the independents that will march us there. Utopians, as misguided as they are, do at least attempt to address some of the issues that challenge their world view (novas breaking baseline law and Taint). The independents, as a group, they're alone.

It calls for self-government until such time as a true government is formed. The emphasis being on forming a government, not on remaining self-governing.

The Teragen alone cannot forge a nova government. See this as abuse if you must, however, the fact remains that baseline law was not written with "terrestrial sentient" in mind, but humans. The difference here cannot be stressed enough. For all the criticism being offered the "self-governing" novas who believe in the Null Manifesto, no one has offered a better alternative for those who believe that baseline law cannot apply to them for reasons that have nothing to do with the selfish "take what I want, kill whom I wish, go where I desire" examples that keep getting emphasized whenever that passage of the Manifesto is referenced. Living under baseline rule and law until such time as a nova government emerges encourages us to remain under baseline rule and law.

Sentient creatures, by and large, prefer the pain and discomfort they know to the pain and discomfort they do not, thus are content to complain about their situation without correcting it, or find ways of deluding themselves so that their pain is lessened or briefly forgotten.

Nations, historically, have not been formed by peaceful secession of one group from another. It is unfortunate that war is possible consequence of seeking to form a nova nation and a nova government. The parent population and parent government are unwilling to lose land and resource to the seceeding nation, and, in a different light, to lose the image of power that comes with such a split.

However, it that is the way nations are nominally forged.

Hang on? The Teragen is NOT responsible for establishing Nova law? That don't make much sense. Why break away from baseline society and join the transhumans if they refuse to create an alternative?

The Teragen, for all it's faults, is probably the best group to experiment with non-baseline society formation. Otherwise it's just anarchy.

Actually, that sounds like a hoot. Can I join?

I don't reckon the Teragen is a selfish group. You only have to look at Geryon or Orzaiz for evidence of that. Those lads are out there protecting other Novas, in their own unique ways of course.

The Terats just tend to attract a whole lot of people who, if they were baseline, would be signing on with the Church of Michael Archangel.

The Teragen seems reasonable and not inherently selfish. Surely, there must be a cause for self advancement? It is not known if Teragen explicitly defines that cause, but perhaps it says the individual should find its own? Thus, the philosophy would be no more selfish than the individual implementing it.

People are not so reasonable sometimes. People are often selfish. Even altruistic behavior will only be performed to satisfy what is Inside, yes? Power attracts those with high levels of self interest (witness: human politics). So the greatest concern at this point is that the Teragen may turn out to be a good idea made not so good by the minds available to implement it.

But that is generally applicable to many philosophical constructs, yes?

...

These thoughts are not to inform so much as provide a shape from which to remove that which is false, so what is true may be better understood.

Hang on? The Teragen is NOT responsible for establishing Nova law? That don't make much sense. Why break away from baseline society and join the transhumans if they refuse to create an alternative?

No, the Teragen is NOT responsible for nova law. The Teragen is responsible for helping to establish it, but they cannot and should not do it alone and any attempt for the Teragen to undertake that task in the name of all novas is destined to fail, if nothing else because the Teragen represents only a certain percentage of those who believe that a nova nation should exist.

No offence love, but the majority of us don't have a problem with baseline society so we don't really see a need to create a new one.

It's the Teragen who spam me constantly about baseline laws not being applicable. Well if they ain't applicable then at least come up with some suggestions for laws which ARE applicable to Novas.

I get that you'd need consensus from the majority of Novas in order to actually build a society. But telling us to "break our chains of oppression" without any idea of what comes next could be catastrophically bad. Everyone'll run off in different directions and no society will form.

I still reckon you guys'd be the best bet for experimenting with a nova-society on a small scale. Just makes sense that you lay the groundwork. Being the cute little transhuman separatists that you are.

The majority of you still live comfortably with the illusion that we are like them, close to them, connected to them, the same as them, Sphere, and some of you simply like being treated as a celebrity and VIP, along with all the perks and benefits that comes with it.

Either way, you are misunderstanding my point. What I said was the Teragen represent a percentage of the novas that feel a nova nation should exist. The Teragen, despite what everyone would like to believe, is not the sum totality of that part of our population.

Not all trans-humans are Terats, you must know this. And not all of them are as vocal as the Teragen.

There seems to be a line of thinking that if the Null Manifesto was never released, novakind would happily be living in the idea that the Zurich Accord was a damn good idea. People seem to forget the Teragen predates the Null Manifesto, and if Mal had not released it, SOMEONE would have released something similar eventually.

And not all terats are trans-humans.

I do not think I transcended humanity. I would first had to have been a human. I am a nova. Wile I may look,and even act human in many ways, I am not. The things that separate me from humans, are not cultural. They are physical. They are built into my very core.

Now Sphere, no one knows everything. We still do not fully understand what we can do. We must understand what we are capable of doing before we set limits.

Slattern, I understand that I am not merely a human with kewl powers. I also understand that not every nova feels that way. I also believe that believing one is just a human with quantum powers a dangerous misconception.

If aliens land, they know our laws and customs and then chose to ignore them, I would consider that an act of war. While the Teragen may provide direction and purpose for the individual, it fails to provide direction for a society, or race.
It tells what to rebel against, but not what to rebel for. It provides no stage, or point to aim for. Is that not engendering perpetual anarchy?
I also disagree to the extremity of how much we are different from baselines and their society. We remain capable of communicating and interacting with baselines even after we see ourselves as something other than baseline human. Count Orziaz, a founder of the Teragen, is still fully capable and able to interact with baseline society.
I understand that not every nova is, or will be able to fully interact with baseline society. For the time being, can we make that a separate matter?

I agree that novas with taint-related issues are a problem and are going to become a more significant problem as time goes on. If every nova who knows anything about this matter would openly share what they know, I believe novas could work to deal with this.
Still, I think you under-estimate the attachment many novas have to their baseline lives and associates. I think you and yours are down playing the results of a more active and radical Teragen agenda. The reaction to a policy of baseline eradication/subjugation will be a major catalyst in the upcoming struggle.
That there is this thinking in the Teragen that expects the baseline-associating novas to idly sit back and accept an organized effort to destroy our lifestyles is my main concern.
Are their novas associated with the Teragen that organize themselves along the lines of either exterminating baselines, or enslaving them?

The moral issue is interesting. One can hold any moral system they desire, but what responsibility do they have when in the process of exercising their moral structure, they negatively impact me?
More directly, if a nova decides that it is within their moral code to kill baselines indiscriminately, what are my options considering I hold a moral code closely akin to the Judeo-Christian Western European viewpoint?
Extenuating circumstances aside; that killing another person is wrong, and so is allowing another to kill a person when I could do something about it?

Ashnod, I have seen little evidence to see novas are working toward a nova government. I fully acknowledge that I could be not "in the know", but I have been asking about such a thing.

In your opinion;
What do you seeing the catalyst for an attempt at said government?
What percentage of the nova population would need to participate in both the creation and implementation phases of this?

Now to some points I find disturbing:
In one case, novas are supposed to think for themselves. I get that.
But, you use examples of baseline society to explain why we haven't formed one yet.
Nations, historically, have not been formed by peaceful secession of one group from another.
Your statement is incorrect. Belguim, Norway, and Singapore have all come about without bloodshed. I agree that violence is the norm, but it is not automatically necessary.

Sentient creatures, by and large, prefer the pain and discomfort they know to the pain and discomfort they do not, thus are content to complain about their situation without correcting it, or find ways of deluding themselves so that their pain is lessened or briefly forgotten.
So non-Terat thinking novas have to be forced to change?
Is it possilbe that you are attempting to liberate novas who do not wish to be liberated, and will not appreciate you once you have destroyed who they were?

I am not trying to be critical here. I honestly want to know your opinions and to hear any suggestions you have toward a peaceful resolution to the trouble I see brewing.

For everyone else, please do not take anymore cheap shots at the terats I am attempting to engage in this discussion.
Sphere, I understand your points, but I do not see your actions helping this debate. You may feel good about your retorts, but we will all be paying for a failure to establish a dialouge tomorrow.

I'll let you in on the opinion of the greatest art fag the world has ever seen (what the hell did happen to Machina, the repressed homophobe not the transhuman hottie). The catalyst is going to be a lot people getting sick of the bullshit and deciding they're not going to take it anymore.

Everyone keeps looking for that golden Oh SHIT moment they can look back on and say, "That was it. That was the day that made the present" but its a big world out here and I don't think there's ever going to be one of those. Look at the facts. A big chunk of Brazil went *phfft* and for all the fascist crap about tech control we're no closer to knowing who did it, why or keeping it from happening again. Some fucko decides to kill Slider and we don't know who did it, why or how to keep it from happening again. Divis Look at my buns of steel Mal beats down Pax at control freak central with more novas in attendance than anywhere except maybe the Amp Room on the N-Day celebration and for all the dire bullshit people are still chanting, the world is still here. Speaking of which, for those of you that can read lips you should piece together a video montage and check out what Mal and Pax are saying to each other. Its not quite what Utopia OR Ntertainment want you think it was.

Anyway, this what I think. And this is why this religious bullshit bores the fuck out of me when you guys decide to go at it over who's religion has got more love to go around than somebody else's religion. You all think you're the good guys and the future will see that, even if you waste electrons explaining why you don't care if the future sees it or not. Well surprise, the truth is there aren't any good guys or bad guys. There's just a bunch of guys although some of them are fucking nuts.

You're all going to make the world what it is and the people loving what it is aren't going to have the slightest clue what you were about. And the one's suffering for it aren't going to give a shit who was right, wrong or why you thought what you did was such a good idea at the time.

This public service announcement has been brought to you by the Official New Nova in Ibiza Welcoming committee dedicated to making sure everyone has a cool tee shirt to wear on Armageddon day. Back to you boys and girls.

Groupie who thinks that hanging out with a terrorist organisation is romantic?

Well surprise, the truth is there aren't any good guys or bad guys. There's just a bunch of guys although some of them are fucking nuts.

That would certainly describe someone who did not believe in the existance of good and evil, the concepts of right and wrong, and who holds a dim view of the good that people can accomplish. Amorality is comforting in that it avoids making difficult life choices.

Evil? You mean like the devil evil? Like the ultimate antithesis of the word evil? No, I don't.

You can call that amorality if that's the only way to fit it into your world. But I'll tell you now - and this is me explaining - most people talking about "evil" are really just talking about how "good" they are or want to be. People usually seek, and find, comfort by assigning labels to something so that it doesn't have to be thought about.

Preston, did you even read my last post?

Said pretty much the same thing as you, just took less words to say it.

This is a free message board, and I'll say what I like, Dad.

In the same manner other people like to think of people and actions as amorally-motivated to allow them to sleep better at night. Rationalize it all you want.

Meow!!