Unfortunately I find myself not enjoying my time here anymore. I think a lot of us have had some really good character interaction but it's just gotten out of hand lately.

Some of us are getting too upset about in character posts and I think their is no middle ground on where each of our characters comes from.

I know Apep and Ashnod come from a game where they were extremely influential people. But that doesn't exactly translate well to this medium. It just isn't fair to the rest of the characters if either of us where to flaunt our status. I think most people here understood that too but if one person comes along and upsets the balance, it ceases to be fun for anyone else.

I thought it always best to just leave canon alone. Not even to get into it here. There's just too many conflicting stories. So why is one characters version of canon the right one and the other not? I think you get my point without me having to give examples.

You know, it's just a game when it comes down to it. It's nothing to get upset about. I thankfully am nothing like my character. I don't kill people on a whim, I don't worship evil forgotten deitys. I do not have sex with slimy six armed men who live in sewers. Maybe that's why I don't take this all so seriously.

Anyways, I digress. Maybe in a month or two I'll rejoin the nprime community, but for now I'm outta here. :p

Ewwww....Apep has sex with Leviathan?

Anyway, I'm beginning to see what you mean. Things have become a little odd of late, to say the least. I had hoped that the latest development in the little story I've been crafting would have provoked some interesting reactions, but instead received more of the same. I suppose I really shouldn't have expected otherwise, but when Jager introduced Costas, I had to drag the little fracas out to it's inevitable end, which meant running with it in the manner that I thought my character would. So call me optimistic if I thought I'd get something other than the "You suck!" argument again.

Other than that, not a whole hell of a lot has been going on lately, has there?

Anyway, who is Synapse? This is a new one on me. He (or she?) laid it on a bit thick, though they did their research.

On the one, I'd like to walk away for awhile, too. On the other, I feel more inclined to find a reason to bring Avenger back. Neither will probably happen anytime soon.

Well, you'll be missed. Until you feel like returning.

-- Avenger

Personally I don't have a problem with canon being used, so long as whomever is writing it up doesn't use it as a tool to smack someone else across the chops and go 'cuz I'm this much kewler than you damnit!'. That's just boring. Canon gives us a base to work from. It gives us some pretty big fucking huge parts of the world and we can play around in the little pieces without disturbing everyone.

Avenger-Why am I begining to feel that any reaction to your characters activities that don't come across as outright support are defined as 'you suck'? Some of the replies I've read on your threads have been fairly well thought out. Not Ranger's really, but he's got a bloody excuse, he's defined as a strictly black/white thinker.

If you want to step away, kewl, you'll be missed, but I don't think that I like the accusation that we are simply not living up to your expectations. I didn't think I had to pass any tests to participate here.

Hi ho folks. Been away for a while, due to unforseen personal problems. Sheesh, I really have to read the IC boards, it sounds like someone when at it hammer and tongs. Hope to post more of Hazzard Vs Ryan today so wish me luck. There is a planned conculsion there so keep viewing.

(Sigh.)
I agree with you on a lot of accounts, Apep. That was why I decided to play a Baseline character instead of a Nova when I entered N! prime for the first time, see; the sheer pressure on the IC boards seemed a bit more than I am willing to handle in the pursuit of good fun. Shit, I even gave up acting because I didn´t want to spend ninety percent of my time elbowing my way forward through a crowd of bitches just to get to do what I love.

A lot of this (in my own biased opinion, ´course) seems to stem from A) That people tend to play characters that they´ve played for about a hundred years in Tabletop campaigns, and so have quite a developed sense of that character´s place in the world - which tends to be pretty damn solid, given that time, and B) That a lot of people seem to want to play characters who are avatars of their own convictions given quantum-powered flesh. It´s hard to have a heated IC discussion when you realize that you´re not only dealing with IC conviction; frankly, it makes me a bit uncomfortable.

People seem to take a whole lot for granted; if someone throws out an (IC) idea, question or conondrum, someone else always seems to have solved it in five minutes, analyzed it to pieces and come up with twenty more effective solutions, simply because the players feels that his character is omniscent enough to do so. This does little but to encourage people to play perfect supergods; why bother to play the lone Nova struggling with the riddle of why you can´t seem to have children when there are twenty people ready to lecture you on the nature of Utopia and Proteus, the high-level transgovernmental conspiracies et al?

When I get the chance, I play with another guy who sometimes roams these forums, my friend and workmate Argent. Together, we´ve tried to come up with some intresting little stories and subplots to the world of Aberrant; something in the vein of Planetary, or a superpowered version of the X-files. Unfortunately, people seem more interested in pulling a plot to pieces to prove their own superiority than to actually join in on the good fun. This hasn´t actually been encouraging when it comes to sharing what other stories that he or I (or both of us) have written up, and what´s the point in that? It´s college all over again, with vengeful, razor elbows all over the place.

To quote Prodigy: "I didn´t know that I had to pass a test to come here..."
Now, it just feels like I´m flunking it all of the time.

See you around, perhaps.

Gwyneth, ouch, I think I recognize myself somewhere in there. If you would, please forward a small apology to Argent for me, as I believe I am one of the guilty party when it comes to pickiness. I would like to say that the origin of that was not so much, I AM GOD AND KNOW ALL, and more a result of a gaming personality developed from experience with a particular ST. I've just learned not to assume I've gotten away with anything because I tend not to have. My ST loves making sure that the all powerful opponents are pretty much that, all powerful. So, I was more reacting to Argent's storyline as I would have to one of my ST's, which was to say "Hmmm, looks like someone has won. That's a bad thing, cuz its gonna be fecal meet fan time real soon." But, I wasn't in my game, I was peripherally dealing with Argents, so, my bad.

This is why I have pretty much stopped posting here. Oh I still read and enjoy, but I find there is very little of interest to an 18 year old Nova struggling to come to grips with the world around him.

Having all the answers just handed to him leaves a sour taste in my mouth. We can't just point fingers at the board for all the problems though. It doesn't help when the game itself tells you everything, even those things that are suppose to be secrets.

How can anyone logially argue for Utopia for example, when we (as players) all know that it is rotten to the core? Here in lies the problem.

Next, we had some posts which absolutely no purpose other than to entertain (Lucius Clay's topics) and they got ridiculed for being pointless. After that, all traffic on them came to a dead halt. Shame really, they were fun, light and had abosutely nothing to do whith how powerful people were. Maybe thats why those who complained about them did so?

Gwenneth, I liked the plot that you and Argent created; the node stealers were cool and that kind of thing should inspire the fear of the creator in any nova who comes accross it. If you and Argent are interested, try doing what myself and others have done, or Hazzard and Father Ryan are doing. Write your topics as short fiction. Most people here have been curtious enough not to post on those threads without invitation so as not to interfere with the story, and it allows you to tell a (hopefully) rompin' good tale.

I would hate to see any of you leave, each person on the boards adds something special to it and the dynamic is never the same when someone leaves. I already miss the regular posts of such people as Ashnod, Stheno, and Bungee, amung others.

If you do leave think fondly of those still here and please find you way back soon.

-Nick

Meehan, Rossi: Me and Argent are splitting this comp right now, so here´s the reply:

Thank you both; Prodigy for your courtesy (a trademark of yours for which we are grateful), and to Rossi for the compliments (which warms up our hearts).

If someone wants to add something to a plot that someone of us has posted, you are welcome to PM us; we can discuss the matter, supply whatever additional info you´d acquire from, say, the partial blueprints of the organic nanotech and then you can go ahead and sink the plot, or contribute to it, or whatever.

(Argent speaking : ) I always do enjoy attention; what I´ve had a hard time with here on N!Prime has been the take-no-prisoners hard-hitting style that so many of you has got going. You know each others´ characters extremely well, and you´ve sort of created your own little sub-universe around here. This is both good and bad, and reminds me a whole lot of the times when I was still LARPing; we did a whole lot of Vampire:TM (though we ditched those horrible White Wolf "LARP" rules).
One tries to establish a mystery, something that I myself would consider a good read were it to appear in a comic book, or in novel form; I am a novelist, so it´s basically what I do. Now, there are some things to consider when crafting a story, most notably the pacing and the mood of the story versus the involved characters. Would Planetary have been so much fun if Eliah Snow, using his Mega-Intelligence and Probability Manipulation, immediately figured out who the Fourth Man was, what´s up with the Four as well as the proper way to bring them down? The joy here lies in the moderate pacing, and thus in the gradual development in the story.

I tend to get a little pissed off when someone steps in and hijacks my story (that I´ve spent many a long hour writing up, making up sketches and drawings for, proposed to friends, etc.) in the span of one moderate-sized posting. I try to be considerate when it comes to things like this; if you want to be part of it, great. If you want to win it, stay the hell off my story and go back to Warhammer Quest.

(Gwyneth back: ) As you´ve noticed by now, Argent is the one mainly responsible for the storyline of the Node Harvesters. Much as I do in-character, I´ve mostly played a supporting part. I do agree on all points, though. (I am also in the process of convincing him to actually put his drawing/comic work on the subject so far up on the web. Keep posted.)

Things would go so much smoother with a tiny bit of respect. Ease up, people, and try to get your kicks in some other way than to run over other people´s attempts to roleplay. Aberrant might be just teh game to appeal to such an inferiority complex, but it´s not really worth it in the long term.

We´ll probably stick by. See you later on.

-Gwyneth & Argent, caped but not crusading

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Gwyneth Marlowe ]

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Gwyneth Marlowe ]

Yes, it would be nice to keep as many people posting as possible. Personally I am having to stop using the opposing views as there is only so much a Nova hating baseline can say before it becomes pure repetition. It would be sad to lose one of the few other baseline posters on this forum Gwen. I'm not sure (depending on how the story goes) as to how long Father Ryan will be with us.

On a lighter note it is amusingly TUM TUM who springs to as one of those "silly" yet highly funny posts. Always liked that character for some reason.

Now I must away and do some writing. Hazzard has finally put up his post so I must try and add to the story. We still don't know who wins. (I think my money is NOT on the baseline priest somehow!). I'll go with Tainted Godlike Nova for 4 please Bob.....

God bless all here.

Gwyneth, sweetie, I am so sorry!

Gwyneth is a wonderfully valid and interesting character. One that reminds many of those here what they once were, what is 'normal' for most of the planet, or what they believe they are transcending. All the while actually having her own goals and a life.

Wizard was serious when she noted that only the 30-ish baseline seemed to see the logical flaws in the reported events and question beyond the obvious.

There are so many things I wish I could say right now but I'm still at work. Gwyneth, Argent, I have never had an unkind word to say about either of you IC or OOC. Bye for now and hope to see you soon.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Wizard ]

Nick- I think you've made a couple of good points that I would like to address. I personally think that Jordan has a lot to offer the forums, his viewpoint is just as valid as mine and his opinions are often a bit fresher and more original. How can we support Utopia? Very easily, because it is not rotten to the core. Yes, Proteus sucks, but Proteus is not the sum total of Utopia. Utopia is still filled with scads of good intentioned, morally upright and genuinely good people.

You could simply state; Screw you cyncical, ignorant bastards. Utopia rules! Here are my experiences with them. You think Teragen is kewl, well I think they're a buncha sickos and here are my experiences with them that back them up.

Please come back to the forum, you've been missed.

Gwyneth and Argent- You made some spectacular points. I think your rules for interaction within the thread is spot on. However I would like to point out a couple of things. If you are creating a thread, as opposed to a story, you are inviting some interaction and that interaction may come from people who disagree with you. If you have a very specific story to tell, maybe you should present it as such. I'll hop on any thread that interests me and I will act according to the character that I've developed here (yes, I've table topped Prodigy, but I've actually developed him more here than when I played him in an active game.) and in the case of Prodigy, he is a very smart, fairly cynical bastard who does tend to see the downside of things. However, I wouldn't dream of involving myself in a story that I wasn't invited into, for example, Hazzards Burning story has no reason to fear me sticking my fat nose into things.

Your Node Collectors concept was interesting and therefore I hopped in, and again, I apologize for acting the fool, but I would like to point out that you created an event that would have world spanning repurcussions. That kind of thing I try to avoid in the IC forums as I don't want to be trying to define someone elses experience. In Prodigy's experience he has done a few things that I don't mention here because I don't want to wreck other peoples interaction with him. In his game Prodigy blew up Mecca, poisoned the Ganges and Amazon and a few other things, but as far as I am concerned he didn't do that *here*. So, I guess my arrogant little struttings came out of the concept of trying to limit you, something just as bad as my trying to define you. I'd love to see you continue to participate. Perhaps I should spend more time as Vile Bill or Ripsaw and give the mega-Genius schtick a rest.

Oh! Father Ryan! You're right, TUM TUM ruled!!!!

Man I miss him. You know, it was three posters that got me interested in this place initially and TUM TUM was my favorite.

Prodigy: I can´t speak for Argent, but you´ve made some points of your own. No one wants to see their consensual game world changed significantly because someone has a spur of inspiration.
However, it would seem dreadfully apparent from reading his postings that Argent has put quite some work into this idea. If you didn´t want it to affect too much of your/our world, then again, what´s the harm in a simple PM? I don´t know if he´ll continue as planned, but the original idea was to make it another high-powered cover-up, making Argent´s plans count for naught, and serving to make him more of a cynic than he originally was, seeing how powerful his enemies can be.
A series of mysterious "suicides" on various high-powered officials opver a period of weeks, then silence. Pretty cool in my book.

You see a great difference in threads and stories, and maybe you´re right; still, both of them is due to someone´s hard work. I didn´t enter the "my enemies" thread to state that I had come up with a superweapon that´d kill Costas and everyone who has ever liked him. (I don´t really mean to sound as vindictive as I think I do, but you get my drift, no?)

Wizard: I don´t have, and has never had, any problems at all with you or your character. Wonderful stories, great roleplaying, a lot of respect. No offense taken for the "thirtysomething" comment; I actually percieved it as an honest comment from Wiz.

Which was the same gripe I had when I started the first incarnation of this post. What I had intended to be a legitimate fact-finding endeavor ended up being swamped with replies that made my character feel like he was the only one who didn't know. Things got progressively better, but it seems that now the bell curve is drooping down to the other end.

Avenger and I the same? Yeah, like Golden Age Batman and Miller's Batman. Give me the powers of a god, put me through a fucked-up relationship, have my girlfriend get murdered and have me join a supremacist movement that requires my killing people on a daily basis and Avenger and I would be almost the same guy. But of course, details like that are only superficial, right? Avenger and I aren't the same, though as my ST way back in the day required characters based off ourselves, this is what we got.

I feel the hardest place to play a character type that deviates from yourself is online. One might think it's the easiest, but consider for a moment; in a LARP, putting up the facade of being a six hundred-year old bloodsucking Frenchman requires period garb and a bad accent. In tabletop, playing a bombs disposal expert requires four dots in Dex and three in Demolitions. Online, playing anyone with an ability or tempramant deviant from your own becomes increasingly difficult. You can't fake knowing all there is to know about Renaissance Art when character interaction through text is all you have. So when I come here, I like to play characters that I have the mettle to back up. I'm not going to pretend to be an overweight black lesbian trapped in a loveless marriage raising three kids. I'd frankly be able to do fake it easier in reality. That said, I don't think it's at all off-kilter when people show up here playing representations or avatars of themselves. The only time it gets out of hand is when the person is a fucking lout, but I don't see any of them here, thankfully.

I like using canon. But if I may sound a bit rules Gestapo, I think the board would benefit from a little regulation. From now on, I suppose you'll all be able to tell when I've posted, because every post I have is going to look like the following:

Date: 04222009
Place: New York City
Continuum: Avenger's (or whoever)

or

Date: 096112012
Place: South Seas
Continuum: Jager's

This is simple, so pay attention:

1. Was your character active during the date of the post?

If Yes, proceed.
If No, do not post without a character who was active during that time.

2. Would your character have reason or motivation to be present at the locale?

If Yes, proceed.
If No, do not post without a character who has a reason to exist in this space.

3. Does your characters' background story jibe with that of the continuum you're posting in?

If Yes, POST!
If No, get a character who does.

Is this a bit much? Not really. Characters are versatile, and if you need to say something, you'll find some way -- someone -- to say it. For a post in 2015, I'd paint Avenger up as a taint-buttered madman -- or a redeemed pacifist saint. Where he goes is of concern only in that thread. If I needed someone to make a rational argument for killing your enemy in a post at that time, I'd just use another character. No big deal.

Anyway, just a thought. I'll use this for now on so that nobody gets confused or feel out of temporal space, and you have the choice to contribute along those guidelines or not. I don't really mind. It's more for people who would follow-up post.

-- Avenger

You know what? That wouldn't sting anywhere near as much as it does if it wasn't so darn true. My bad. There are two very specific reasons I didn't take the path you show would have been so peachy easy.

1. I am too much of a dumbass to have noticed the private message option at the time your thread went down.

2. Two, I ain't admiting what was behind some of my posts. I am not particularly proud of it, lets just say I will endeavor to avoid similar actions.

Please, Argent, continue with your concept, it was actually quite well done.

Avenger, I am curious to see how other people react to your time stamp idea. I'm not too sure as to how it would fly. Multiple threads from multiple realities for multiple timelines, hmmm, are you old enough to have read Crisis on Infinite Earths? More importantly, are you old enough to remember why it was such an unbelievebly necessary move?

Hello, Prodigy.

After giving the matter some thought, I guess I´ll just go on as planned.
I must say that the concept of the player of perhaps the greatest genius in the N!Prime Aberrant world being unable to find the PM function made me laugh my ass off. Sorry, couldn´t resist.

As for your own personal reasons, I trust them to be yours alone.

Again, thanks to you and everyone else who bothered to be polite. It sure goes a long way, and hey; it´s free of charge.

Avenger: I´m not sure that I´d like this to become an Aberrant version of DC Hypertime. The effort is nice, but I think you might have some problems as to the execution thereof. Still, if you bother to start up a thread that takes place ten years in the future, it´s your thread. I´ll play by the rules.

Oh, BTW, for those who aren't involved in the Alex/Syd Storyline, and are wondering where they went, well, They're still in my head. Once the "Mysteries and Intuition" thread resolves itself (hopefully that will happen soon, I'm waiting on other authors), I'll introduce them back. I'm of the opinion that when your character is missing, he should kind of stay that way. Otherwise, it's quite possible to spoil the story a little.

So, Syd and Alex will be back eventually, and yes, I do have an excuse that will explain their absence. I'm not sure if I'll keep Teknokat, my supposed "stand-in" character who is now also engaged, but I'll see how things go (just trying to keep Alex and Syd seperate entities was difficult enough).

So, I'm not posting because I don't want to, just because I can't. Just thought I'd let you all know that, in case you didn't know.

Within 48 hours, Kirby. Promise.

Thanks, although you know that we still got a bit to go to get through the storyline. We're still barely introducing characters still!

Trust the nice Wizard. She's only mildly distracted at the moment, although still a couple of hours away from finishing with Maria Sanchez, but its getting there.

Magic is only a slight change in perception.

Shall do. Hopefully the trip next week to Adelaide (where another cell of RPG friends of mine reside) won't interfere too much. Actually, considering the RPG cell there, I'll probably be blessed with an overabundance of material and inspiration!

Hey, Prodigy is a megaubersuperultragenius, but me? Me, I'm a bit of a knucklehead ofttimes. Also, the title of greatest genius currently residing here, I think at least, belongs to Atwight. He's walking around with a big, furry MegaInt 6. But, he's also an NPC in his ST's world so I don't know if I am in competition with him. I also figured that Argent (the character) was dancing around with a pretty high MegaInt. Have you ever considered listing him on the My Character thread? Its nice and it helps us to gauge the characters a little better, especially if they end up making little guest appearences (pre approved of course) in our little fictions.

Can't wait to see how your stuff ends up. It was pretty kewl. I promise to try to play nice from now on.

I don't think I'll be using the Ranger as an IC thread character anymore because, quite frankly he doesn't work in that format. I have a new idea I want to try out so keep your eyes open and tell me what you think.

One of the main problems with an IC forum, especially one that uses a common, consensual universe that is resistant to tampering because of the differing perceptions of said universe is the basic rules of interaction - it is really, really easy to take potshots at someone.

Say, for example, that you´re trying to portray a high-profile idealist Nova who works for the general betterment of the world (in his own subjective view, of course; assume that we´re talking generally, like raising the standards of life due to medical care, global resources etc.). Being Mega-intelligent and quite resourceful, he could (relatively) easily come up with inventions that´d make life a whole lot easier for people - say, advanced cloning processes to help medical care, or a new quick-growing, high-resistant strain of wheat to feed the starving third world countries.

This would, however, be to trespass on other people´s perceptions of the world, and so it could not possibly be done. The end result of this is that it is pretty damn hard to be an idealist, when you can do very little but to try to defend the status quo - basically, be a lame Superman who in reality does very little for the people of this world but to keep things just as they are.

No wonder that it´s easier to play a super-individualist; of course you won´t share your inventions with the world if you don´t really care about the welfare of the baseline population at large. If you on the other hand claim to do so, and someone makes a comment about why you don´t get your head out of your ass and do something for the baselines "if you care so goddamn much about them", what are you supposed to say?

"Er, well... the time is not right."
"Then when is it, hotshot? You claim to be a scientific genius and all."
"Well, I am."
"Prove it then, you worthless little piece of shit. Lame-ass bleeding heart poser. You don´t really care, do you?"
"..."

This is a tough situation to deal with. I don´t really hold with Avenger´s method (since my characters are in constant evolution, and i don´t really have a blueprint for different periods of their lives; that and the Hypertime argument), but on the other hand... I have a hard time coming up with something better. As it is... well...

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Argent ]

I rolled on the floor laughing and spewing cola out of my nose after reading this!

I'm working on an "ethics of interaction with canon characters" piece to work out some ideas and deal with one piece of the shared world puzzle. You've brought up the other piece though, and that's a much harder issue to address.

How much of the larger shared world of the forums is predicated on the smaller world of the table top where many of our characters come from? In one game a character is the dark knight; uncatchable, untraceable, ineffable. In another game he's dead in 30 seconds with nasty bits scattered over a 10 mile area. Does this mean he's a poser? More likely, it means that the assumptions underlying the game world changed and vulnerablities came to light.

Sorry, don't have an answer on this one yet but I'm working on it. And god that quote was funny!

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Wizard ]

Yeah, I've seen this kind of problem popping up, I just try to sidestep it. The tabletop in which I played Prodigy had some pretty heavy limitations when it came to playing a MegaInt. In person to person interaction, when dealing with small scale situations the ST was more than fair when it came to giving me some leeway due to Prodigy's intellect. However, when it came to major scientific breakthroughs he was hogtied. He wanted a canon game, hell, we all wanted a canon game. Once Prodigy was dancing around with MegaInt 3+ and 4 dots in every academic, computer, science and what have you field plus 5 dots of resources it suddenly became laughable to consider what he was capable of coming up with.

So, in our game, the black tech watchmen at Utopia were very, very, very omnipresent. Everything I could make was subject to their whim until I had gaming reason for Prodigy to just throw up his hands in frustration and tell the world to piss off, they obviously didn't want his help. So, I come here and I am carrying that baggage, having been in a game where my characters influence was restricted by the greater powers that surrounded him.

But you know, there's nothing saying that we can't all work on it. Try to leave our respenctive baggage at the door, come to a group consensus as to certain concepts. Anyone wanna give it a try? I certaintly don't want to lose this, one of my reletively few pleasures.

I have observed a few things about the IC board:

1. For the most part people want to stick to cannon there or at least work around it.

2. Characters played there tend to be high powered due to the fact that lower powered characters are "outshone" by their hyperpowered counterparts. (I think lower powers make more interesting characters myself and will be restricting myself to same in future...less worries about world changing too :))

3. A lot of blustering and insulting happens but it falls a little flat when nothing can be done about it without each characters consent (something I agree strongly with...no one should interfere with another persons character without their consent).

4. Some of the most popular and widely visited threads are those where lower powered characters ask for advice, and also the story threads; although they kind of preclude involvement and are more properly classified as a kind of mini series.

5. Everyone seems to like the IC interaction, they just need a little direction...maybe this N Prime News thing will provide that?

Comments anyone? Flames, suggestions etc all welcome.

Thank you, thank you.

What I hope to achieve with my little posts is to give us something to play with. None of the posts will be particularly specific so if you want to make up details yourself when you reply, go for it. If you want to accuse me of being pro-Utopia, anti-Nova, whatever, go for it. My ego is not wrapped up in how people interpret what I write so respond in any way you feel is appropriate.

The posts will be fairly canon based but I would like the ability to reference any public actions that characters here claim to have done or have occured in stories. Again, sometimes the reports may seem biased or factually innaccurate, much like normal infotaintment.

Hope this works out. Or hell, maybe it'll just stink up the forum for a couple weeks like a dead, festering woodchuck.