Cody has just said what noone has been willing to say...

and I'm glad you did

Ulric already made his vote for the Mastermind's execution known. He has been trying to show Andrew how any True Court or Tribunal would fail to convict. Then what does the team do? Could Andrew live with that woman going free?

This isn't the most difficult case you can have. The most difficult one is "Sloppy Joe". He's a horror, is going to get worse and probably start killing people, and is going to drag baseline/nova relations through the mud just by existing. But he's not a global threat, he doesn't need to kill to live, and he hasn't committed serious crimes *yet*.

He's an inhuman monster who has no place in society, but that's not illegal. But if he shows up tomorrow, we may very well have to kill him.

Or say a fairly stupid kid with immolate+Agg always on and him not having attune.

This is why Steve wants people to talk about it. Ulric, Cody, & Steve wouldn't have a problem seeing the neccessity of just killing her. Andrew, Joani, & Max might have serious problems, and likely would certainly have problems if they weren't given the opportunity to make objections.

Omar, Mike, and Lorean I'm not sure about.

Cody has them, that's why he's mute.

Morgan has a cool anima banner when he's using healing or warp.

Steve might hit the radar as a very enhanced baseline (Q1, Taint 0).

Omar, Joani, Lorean, Mike all hit the radar as "superhuman". I.e. no aberrations, little or no taint.
EDIT: And Ulric.

Max is either like Steve or with you lot.

Andrew I'm not sure about. Technically I don't think he has any aberrations, but "human" doesn't really describe it.

For me, the worse one is the teleporter who unconciously spreads contagious diseases and won't stop hoping around.

Also, Ulric didn't make the list?

Well at this point I think I've said all I can. Andrew knows he is only one against, what? 7 others?

In an open vote he'll get shot down. He had to say his piece and he has done so, if he failed to convince you all, that's either a fault of his argument or your own logic.

I've been consistent throughout. Andrew is NOT claiming she is innocent and doesn't deserve to die, even he can see that. What he is fighting for is a fair trial among her peers (other novas). If your evidence cannot prove to them that she is worth killing maybe you are wrong about that ...

Morgan has aberrant eyes too. There was an issue of ultimate X-Men where Nick Fury sent Wolverine to kill a kid who has erupted as a mutant with an uncontrollable ability to disintegrate flesh in an area effect, leaving only smoking skeletons. he couldn't control his power. Wolverine killed him.

The problem with what Andrew is saying is that suppose we give her a "fair trial" of unpartial peers...how are they going to understand the particulars of telepathy and possesion. The only real experts we have are witnesses for the prosecution...

that's a poor arguement and you know it. How many shlub citizens know the particulars of genetic identification and any of a dozen other forensic sciences that are used in criminal trials. That's the whole point of having Expert witnesses, they educate the jury on the facts of the science behind the evidence.

OK guys, I'm done, I shoulda been out of here over an hour ago and since I don't get paid OT ...

I'll try and catch up first thing in the morning...

Every nova we've presented the case to has voted to kill her. Morgan, Mike, Ulric, and even Andrew & Omar weren't deeply involved. Max is putting something together right now.

Ignoring that we don't have time for that, This is exactly why OJ was let off. The DNA evidence saying he did it was rock solid. His blood there. Their blood on his stuff. The jury didn't understand it.

Further, the jury not understanding things is how we ended up with Dow going under. Science says Breast Implants don't cause lupis or any of the other things they were judged on. But put a pity case in the same room as a big company with deep pockets and emotion takes over.

"Andrew, that is one of the 'legal' weaknesses of the case. How can we understand the justification of someone who is a shell-less spirit? She MUST live inside others to survive. Why is her decision to live in the bodies of others all that different than the team mind-raping/assassinating people for the sake of our vision?"

"We suppose that her actions are taint-related. We hold her actions to be against the public good - such as exposing a global conspiracy to influence world events. How bad is that?"

"We suspect her of killing others, but were is the proof? If we mind-rape her to gain that information, are we just as bad as her?"

"She tried to contact us peacably. We attacked her."

"Your case is not all that open and shut."

Murder is normally illegal, but not always. If a cop sees someone about to kill someone else, he can shoot him. We have the deaths of Billions to worry about, that justifies a lot.

She on the other hand does not. Even if we assume that her actions with her drones was modivated by thinking we were taking over the world, her actions towards Joani could not have been. Further we aren't on trial here.

Sorry, me not understanding her doesn't default the answer to "she's innocent". That previously mentioned cop needs to justify his actions, and if he can't then murder is by default illegal.

And before anyone says it, Steve's expectation is at some point we'll have to justify ourselves.

Unclear, but not meaningful. If she's just run of the mill crazy she still is what she is.

Depends on why she's doing it. When we first started Steve thought we found someone who thought they were wearing a white hat to our black one... and they were just being sloppy. Now he's sure it was someone who was wearing a black hat to our black hat.

This is the weakest part of the case, but it's also the least meaningful. Ulric has killed a lot more people than her. It's even possible (if unlikely) that Steve has. We're willing to forgive past actions of this nature.

She's not on trial for reading people's minds, which we've done. She's also not really on trial for editing them, which we've also done.

She's on trial for trying to take over the world, kill people, being insane, making sex slaves, etc. I'd argue that she's also on trial for being to diseased to live.

Actually we attacked her because she was trying to take over Joani again. Walter on the other hand has more of a case on this subject, but Walter isn't on trial.

Where the case really falls apart is with the use of telepathic evidence, and Steve's Lie Detector power. We have his word she's lying to us about being willing to be peaceful in the future. We have his opinion (and a few others) that she's insane.

On the other hand we have her confession about creating puppets, and making a sex slave. We have Joani's (and her) testimony about what she did to her. We will have the documentation of her trying to expose us, and being our enemy is often enough to get someone killed.

We also have her fundemental nature of needing to kill or enslave people. Being a wolf may not be illegal amoung wolves, but it is amoung sheep. Baa.

I think you mean Harold, not Walter.

Oops. Edited to change that.

I would like to point out that there is still a great leap between "She's guilty of the crime" and "She deserves to Die".

-Her actions toward Joani (mainly being her main host) saved lives.

-Her actions were motivated by suspecting she was dealing with a criminal conspiracy.

-If she is not taint-crazy, the option of her living to be cured is very real. Being taint-crazy - not so very much. There is a reason Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity is a real defense.

-As for the hats, a crime is often taken in context. Why did she do what she did?

-Take over the world - like we have. Kill people - like we have. Being insane - arguable, but also midigating. Sex slave - well she was in the host when these things happened to. Isn't this more like unprecedented territory? Also, is this worthy of Death?

-It could be argued that she came back to the room to find out what had gone on during the session? No doubt she would have jumped Joani again, but proving it isn't so easy.

-Has anyone read her mind? Could she have fooled others to her intentions (we don't see dice pools)? Can you punish someone for something they MIGHT do in the future? Mind you, the team does, but still ...
This just makes me laugh, sorry. Why are we having a tribunal again?

-So basically we think she's a bad girl, she does some things we don't like, so we are going to execute her. Has anyone considered the possibility that she might do a better job ruling the world than we are? We appreciate that our vision may be flawed and act accordingly.
As for the Lie Detector, ask her if she think she would do a better job. That would probably come us as the Truth.


Basically what you want here is Victor's Justice. Okay. Ulric will laugh at the hypocracy.

We are considering the death penalty because we have no way of incarcerating her at the moment. I suppose an alternative would be to give her a brain dead host and keep it sedated but she is still going to burn it up. We also have to consider that with her telepathy she really is too dangerous to let live. Courier's case about Magneto getting the death penalty in RL aren't too far off in my humble opinion. SOme people are too dangerous to live.

Also Steve's testimony with Lie detector is enough for me IC and OOC, since COdy has the same ability.

If you all REALLY want the truth beyond any shadow of a doubt, let Cody interrogate her with Donnighals help. We could even ask Lorean to set up a telepathic relay so that what Cody sees is what the group sees. Also, Cody's disorient would make it difficult for her to use her mind powers on anyone else.

Mind you Ulric that her actions were not motivated to stop our conspiracy...she thought we had power and wants it for herslef. We plan on leaving..she does not...

Another pro in favor of telepathic interrogation...if her madness IS merely normal insanity Cody can treat it and rehabilitate her. If it is Taint induced it is not treatable. The telepathy should be able to tell this way.

IN standard canon, Aberrant Novas like Gabriel Melchior are taken to Bahrain and lobotomized. Id be in favor of that if our parasite had a node to remove.

And mind you that OUR motivations are protecting our cabal's work on this world. NOT because we have some investment in power (like the parasite does) but because if she blows the whistle now...the level of fear and mistrust is going to skyrocket. Not only will all our work be undone, but there is a good probability that we will witness the Aberrant War a Century early, only it will be worse. Psiads are going to get involved and aside from us there will be no countermeasures and no posiibility for an Ultimatum like China's (as if we would want that.)

I am serious..she goes public with her (mis) information and we are looking at war...

If an Aberrant War does happen now, we don't have nuclear weapons to annihilate the planet. Sooner or later, they will get tired of killing one another. Granted the baselines will be at a tremendous disadvantage, but that is where we step in. We could intervene on behalf of humanity, issue a mea culpa, and reimburse the world. We could offer our services on behalf of humanity for 100 years as atonement. If humanity wants nothing to do with us, we go back in time and stop our sphinx.

At this point if it came to war what you'd have on your hands is the world of Xmen with registering of 'mutants' and war between them and the norms. Given the very small population of specials it wouldn't be much of a war, the Specials would have to hide their existence or find themselves killed or enslaved 'for the good of the public'. Psiads and most novas would be undetectable, but eventually as technology progressed and more mutants erupt or whatever the psiads do, things would get ugly. It would be long and bloody until either the specials ruled or were wiped out.

I would like to point out that there is still a great leap between "She's guilty of the crime" and "She deserves to Die".

Fair enough.

-Her actions toward Joani (mainly being her main host) saved lives.

Huh? As far as I know, she took a would be super-girl who probably would have been out saving people on the sly, and turned her into a super-party girl interested in getting laid and being in movies. She also did her best to reformat Joani's mind.

-Her actions were motivated by suspecting she was dealing with a criminal conspiracy.

Her actions towards us? Sure, I buy that.
Her actions towards Joani? That seems unlikely.
Her actions towards everyone else she's met? Ditto. Joani's money needed to come from somewhere, and mental manipulation is the most likely source. Granted, that's not proven, but it's likely to be very soon.

-If she is not taint-crazy, the option of her living to be cured is very real. Being taint-crazy - not so very much. There is a reason Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity is a real defense.

If she didn't have a mind shield capable of stopping Cody maybe we could explore this option. As it stands she's obviously not suffering from any physical source, and we have no way of treating either mental or taint.

-As for the hats, a crime is often taken in context. Why did she do what she did?
-Take over the world - like we have.

Our taking over the world appears to have had nothing for her modivations, which are either taint or insanity.

Kill people - like we have.

I'm not sure we have done this (although granted, that line we will shortly cross). Further, because we did, she had to?

Being insane - arguable, but also midigating.

Not in someone with the power of a god it isn't.

Sex slave - well she was in the host when these things happened to. Isn't this more like unprecedented territory?

Actually I think it fits the current rape laws pretty closely.

Also, is this worthy of Death?

Perhaps.

-It could be argued that she came back to the room to find out what had gone on during the session? No doubt she would have jumped Joani again, but proving it isn't so easy.

She'll get the chance to defend herself, but the possibilities other than Jumping her aren't improvements. Getting rid of a witness?

-Has anyone read her mind? Could she have fooled others to her intentions (we don't see dice pools)?

Actually No, she couldn't have. Steve knows when someone is lying and whenever she talks about cooperating she is.

Can you punish someone for something they MIGHT do in the future?

Depends on the probabilities. If a 2 year old Thetis were around I wouldn't bother doing anything to her. Steve is well aware that many, perhaps most, people are "criminals" in the right situation.

On the other hand, a rabid dog always gets the death penality regardless of whose fault it is.

This just makes me laugh, sorry. Why are we having a tribunal again?

I phrased that rather poorly. I meant "our" in a more global sense, not "us" specifically. In many situations, being on the other side means we can try to kill them. This is normally applied to armies, but sometimes to other situations, especially historically when the laws are weak or non existant.

-So basically we think she's a bad girl, she does some things we don't like, so we are going to execute her. Has anyone considered the possibility that she might do a better job ruling the world than we are? As for the Lie Detector, ask her if she think she would do a better job. That would probably come us as the Truth. Basically what you want here is Victor's Justice. Okay. Ulric will laugh at the hypocracy

If we started grabbing people at random in the world, telling them of the siutation, and asked them, how many would back her? What percentage would back the insane body-burning mental paracite who spends her nights at hollywood parties but is sure she'd make a better dictator than anyone?

Even Lenin and Divis joined us. I don't think Stalin would have, but he basically wanted to rule the world and kill millions of people. Hitler? Ditto. And now we can put the Maid in that same catagory.

Mkay, you and Andrew can go ahead with that. Im tempted to have Cody just side with Andrew out of frustration: Let her free, maroon Andrew on this timeline and let them deal with the consequenses. Sure Cody just spent the last 10 years of his life working on this gorup project but hey, he's a Nova and its a big megaverse. In fact he was against meddling with things in the first place. Why bother when it only branches off a new timeline?

Anyways. Im not going to do that, but if y'all are so itching to screw up our plans maybe you should have to eat that cake...

BTW, just wanted to congratulate everyone here. IN the last month we have created 9 pages of intense roleplaying, and these are pretty long pages. Actually in only the last 3 weeks, since the firsts posts of the new year started on the 7th. So we are averaging 3 pages IC per week atm. Pretty smokin for PbP. This is arguably the most "successful" online game I have ever played in...

Wow... this is my first PbP-Style of game and it is one of the most successful games I've played so far regardless of platform. I must confess I love the way you guys write and it feels very much like really being there although I'm like a continent away from you all. This is really great and I thank you all for this great chance. I must be very lucky if you say so, Overload.

Yeah Joani! Having played in online forums for a couple years now (as my only outlet for gaming..though that is about to change with a tabletop oWoD Mage Game...oh the joy!) i can tell you that many games proposed never get off the ground or die premature wasting deaths from player or storyteller attrition.

Even the long going ones, The Long March included have various lengthy pauses while people are on vacation or around the holidays. Im sure we'll go through slumps again but I have rarely seen an online game get as intense as this one has lately.

Case in point...I've been in the game for over a year now and I have 390 posts as of this one. You have been in the game for a matter of weeks and you have 104...

I'm kinda excited, that must be it

hoo-boy looks like I stirred the pot up a bit eh? Clearly the case wasn't so cut-and-dry ...

Lets try to cover some of the points here:



Agreed, she chose to ruin one life instead of buring through hundreds or dozens of others. We could make the argument that that is what we did by killing Stalin and Hitler, only on a larger scale.




EH? So insanity is only a defense if you are incapable of acting on your insane urges?



Agreed, I don't see this as any different that somebody slipping a girl the date-rape drug. Just because she was not awake doesn't mean the sex was consentual.



Doubtful, but then there are other factors, to imprison her long term requires that others die or lose their lives, her imprisonment should last as long as she can maintain a baseline body.



We did kill (directly or otherwise) Stalin and Hitler for what they would have done. And yet we gave Michael the opportunity to change. We've got an interesting track record on that one.



I can agree if a tribunal agrees with us and the evidence we have to present. Without the future knowledge of her deeds I don't think we can just lump her in with those two.

I agree, this reminds me of my first game here on N!Prime, We had a lot of activity for the first few months and then it started to slow down. Unfortunately it died *sad* but that lead to my PR game and playing in this so it's all good.

Also I hope everybody is cool with the way things are going, I hope Andrew's defence of this monster's rights have produced enjoyable debate for all and not just a tedious argument

It's not tedious from my perspective but we have to move forward sooner or later. The good thing about this is, that I'm pretty sure that everyone involved knows about the morale and ethical complications this case poses and thats good as it is since it is a testament for our own humanity.

Once you start to measure things on the scale of the good of one is less worth than that of entire nations you always walk the edge.

I'm glad that I don't feel as much responsible for all this since I play a special role in this case. You have to consider that only a few hours have transpired since I awakened and you guys revealed to me everything else. Quite a mind job. I'm very impressed by everyones performance on this - there is no character I've encountered till now who doesn't seem authentic in his way to solve this matter. Actually I'm learning alot here.

Hitler would still be alive if he hadn't killed himself after we destroyed his political career. Considering the guy did the same thing in RL after he lost I'm not shocked. Further, what we do is not and can not be justification for what she does. It is possible to make an argument that we are doing evil things. That the end doesn't justify the means. Problem is, our being evil wouldn't make her less so.

And as far as I can tell, Maid did NOT have to do what she did. Even right now, Joani is willing to play host. If she'd asked, the answer would have been "yes". And I (the player) have personally been in Joani's situation and the other character added enough to the table that I decided to say "yes" as well.

Further, if Joani hadn't been around, that *still* wouldn't *require* that she kill baselines. She'd have to jump more often but that's it. IMHO she left a trail of corpses because she doesn't care about it. She isn't a serial killer because she kills people, she kills people because she's a serial killer.

Yes. Magneto gets a bullet the first time he's caught because he's both insane and a danger to the community. The problem isn't what he's done in the past, the problem is what he will do in the future.

Actually we gave all three the opportunity to change. Hitler could have gone into art or something, ditto Stalin. If mass murder wasn't on the table they either checked out or tried to make sure it was.

Meaning we're not sure if she would have been as effective. Agreed.

RE: Hitler
Now that I think, it's possible killing himself was his way to "change".

RE: Magneto
BTW, he's been labled as crazy by several writers, and not by others. For the purposes of this conversation I'm assuming he is.

And if you have the insane urge to be a danger to the comunity, and the power of a god to carry it out, then this is a problem to be solved and not an excuse for it not to be.