I don't feel like a slave. I think it better to say that we are not unified.

The funny part is I've heard arguments, by Terats, that we do damage to the baselines because we're so much better than them.

Novas head up *far* more than our share of top companies, novas are the top sales guys, models, killers, actors, economists, lawyers... basically we're at the top of the food chain in every way.

Dude, we basically own, and run, the world. In theory we may have "equal rights", but in practice all of us are much more than "equal", and the world lines up to treat us that way.

This has been a terrible misunderstanding. When I said "from a certain point of view they have been quite generous", I certainly did not mean from my personal point of view. I am in total agreement with the Zurich accord, and I think there is no reason for the rights of humans to not extend to every other sentient species. What I was trying to say was that even if the Zurich accord hadn't existed, human law would still apply to novas because we live in human territory and interact with humanity and its interests, and the Teragen don't have much right to call that "unfair". After all, we benefit from the physical and social infrastructure that humanity has taken thousands of years to build.

And though I, personally, think that novas shouldn't isolate themselves from humanity (after all, has it not always been said that diversity stimulates progress?), I do think it's the only way that they can justifiably claim a right to self-govern. Do not, however, think that I am a Terat or, indeed, associate with the organization or philosophy in any way. Far from it, I have a great love and respect for all the great things that humanity has done through the ages, which are the very foundation of the nova condition, which would not exist if not for humans.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the way I don't like your tendency towards violence, but do like your ideas. You're an interesting guy, Primal. I'd expect you to be all rough and tough and "to hell with everyone," but you seem to have a well-thought-out personal philosophy going.

Weird.

My dad works in beef processing, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

/obscure?

P3 - Your responses make me think that I've been scoring Primal far too low. I HAVE been busy, doin' stuff. Do I need to add a couple of points to him?

We should think about it together sometime. Perhaps you will find our ideas. . . seductive.

I look like a fish, I prefer to live underwater and I'm pretty damn sure I'm not a human.

Guess that makes me a Terat.

Now gimmie my decoder ring.

You get a decoder ring for join up to! Sign me up lickey split like! Way to go fishhead, you've just lighten up the mood on this here thread!

And my fun time with puppies and kittens are so awful?

I don't think you have to consider yourself a human to want to peacefully coexist with them. Perhaps our contributions since our erruptions have been greater than that of our counterparts but the world around us isn't going away. Why wouldn't we want to make it better for everyone?

Instar, look over the philosophy of the Teragen and let me know what you think afterwards. Having been indoctrintated into the Utopian beliefs (which I admire greatly), I would like to see how the beliefs confront everyday life and social patterns.

I've met a few Terats. Nice guys. A lot more open to new experiences than some of the nervous nellies I've talked to in here.

It's hard for a chef to talk smack about folks who like his food.

My two cents:

Look, the fact is that a lot of novas and baselines treat the Teragen as the problem, but they aren't: novas are. We're all the biggest problem that humanity as a whole has ever faced. We patched up the environmental problems, we made the world less hungry and chaotic, but we ourselves have replaced those problems as the biggest crisis situation facing humanity. Don't shoot the Teragen because we're the messenger, because the message won't go away.

We're smarter, stronger, prettier, and can do shit that you've only ever read about in the comic books. And that's for a start. As far as anyone knows, even the ones doing serious scientific research on this, there's no limit to what we can do if we push ourselves. But we've got a whole raft of different problems we brought with us, stuff that baseline laws and society haven't needed to consider before. And as always, time's running out for answers. We may not, in the scientific sense, be a different species, but just by doing what we can do, we've thrown the underlying assumptions behind a lot of baseline laws and procedures into the toilet. And instead of pulling the handle, we're sitting around arguing what to replace them with instead of just flushing.

Every nova out there is an unique and individual snowflake; no two novas do the same things the same way. We need laws and some guarantees under the social contract to be able to expand ourselves, deal with our Taint difficulties, and do what we do best, laws and guarantees that recognize that we're all different. We can't do that now without putting on an eufiber suit and tie, yoking ourselves to the commonweal, and submitting ourselves for 'disposal' if our problems get out of hand. We're too tied down to correct our situation, for the long-term, but yet we're the only ones who know how to correct the situation. Some novas want and need to interact heavily with baseline society, so they go with the flow and should reap the rewards. Fair enough. But if you need to stretch yourself, to push past your limits, and the nearest asteroid won't work for you...currently, you're fucked. And that's wrong, because every nova has the potential to change the world, and we end up with the ones on the cutting edge of change being slapped in a box.

My powers involve luck and entropy. If I was skilled enough, I could give the entire world a day, maybe even a week, where things went smoothly and shit worked the way it was supposed to. And I could keep doing it. But I can't do that right now: it's beyond my capabilities. To get there, I need to stretch myself, and stretching luck can be tricky, even under the best conditions. How can I do that without every asshole lawyer hunting me down? And how will I claim my rewards if I do succeed? The law and the markets in place can't deal with that question. Novas could, but it would terrify the baselines.

Even if the novas at Project Utopia were doing all they do out of the goodness of their hearts, with no hidden threat of coercion (and that threat is there, make no mistake!), I'd still be leery about what they do because in the end, it's just a glorified, quantum-boosted band-aid. People are still overpopulating, resources are still getting consumed, and humanity as a whole can only tread so lightly. Humans and novas are still looking at each other, and not knowing what the hell to do. Only the brightest novas are coming close to making it workable, but we're still running out of options. every problem we solve, more come out of the woodwork. Something will give, sooner or later.

People, nova and baseline, are supposed to be ends in themselves, not the means of someone else. That's why we live. However, people have, historically, always had to get along and give to make a stable society. That's how we live. And there's always been a conflict between those goals, but never so much as it relates to us as novas. We can interact with baselines just fine, but as far as equitable trade, they don't offer much that we couldn't make ourselves. It's lopsided, and I think in the long run they risk growing dependent. But the one thing we need from them (the chance to stretch ourselves and learn about ourselves) they can't give. They're paranoid, and in some cases, justifiably so. Not to mention that the planet is just too damn small.

I don't want to own people. I will not tolerate being owned. I will work with you, but I have the right to ask to be rewarded on my own terms for my contributions. And if I don't want to work with you, you need to respect that. Right now, that isn't happening. Baseline society is taking advantage of the fact that no nova is an island, because no nova can develop himself into a self-sufficient society of one, not under these conditions. So the Teragen came into being, to create a support network by novas for novas, to address these very real concerns. It isn't about hate, it's about us having different needs and abilities. We want laws, laws that respect us for who we are and what we can do, and we're really the only ones who can give ourselves those laws. Without that, we're left with being god-kings or glorified slaves, neither of which is an acceptable option. Right now, neither is building a new "novas-only" continent or space travel, not for all of us. And why should we be the ones to take a hike?

That's the problem. And there are no easy answers, because we've already run out of them. Everything that our common society rests on is a band-aid waiting to tear in half. And if you think this is bad, what will happen when novas start reproducing? If our tendency toward Lamarckian evolution holds true, how much more advanced than us will our children be? What will they be able to do that we can't? And why are the Teragen the only ones trying to treat this problem seriously, with long-term goals instead of quick fixes?

That's why I joined the Teragen: they recognize the problems, and are looking long-term at the answers.

And your answer is to become a law unto yourself? As you yourself lay out experimenting with your power can lead to disasterous results. Of course, you don't want to take real responsibility for this. You want to avoid those pesky lawyers, and police-type persons who seem to be pissed that you have killed, mained, and annoyed other people ... because you have some vision (that may or may not be correct) about what you should be doing.

No. Find a way to expand your repitoire that doesn't endanger people. Personally, I don't like the idea that some other novas feels its okay to risk my life because he's got this cool idea. Too bad for me if his/her experiment kills me, because they have the right to expand themselves?

How about we continue working with baselines, instead of seeing them as obstacles?

That is why I haven't joined the Teragen: they want to drive a wedge between baselines and novas.

Dude, atom bombs. Chemical and biological warfare. Where were your precious baseline laws and ethics and prudence when those were invented? Oh, that's right, we were at war. And when fear and rage set in on a big scale, ethics and prudence go right out the fucking window. Afterwards, people adjust. But some of that same technology led to better vaccines, better space exploration, and a chance at an energy source much less polluting than coal or fossil fuels.

Each nova out there has the potential to do damage on that scale. But, each nova also has the potential to do untold good on that kind of scale. You cannot get one without risking the other. And you risk tragedy when you try stuffing genies back in their bottles. They never stay put. History teaches that, if nothing else. And would you rather have an Anataeus who liked you, or who was pissed at you?



HA HA HA HA HA! Drive a wedge between novas and baselines? We're the ones telling you the wedge is there, and how far it goes. Everyone else is treating it like the 2-ton elephant in the room, maybe trying to throw drapes over it or maybe wallpaper over it, but it's there and not going anywhere.

You're talking preferences, and I'm talking inevitabilities. You might think you're trading risk for comfort, but that comfort has a whole different set of problems. The worst of it is: it fools people into thinking things can stay as they are. They can't. Novas will continue to progress, and tensions will continue to rise. And the longer we dick around about it, the less prepared we're going to be when shit comes crashing down. We need to be working on an equitable society for novas and their problems. We aren't, because we keep trying to not spook the straights. Not all of them are "in the way", but they and their society can't give us all we need. They aren't built for it, their society isn't built for it. And it's getting later and later to start working on these problems.

And for what I hope is the last time, that "law unto yourself" is supposed to be a patch until novas as a whole stop dicking around with trying to pretend that they're still human, with no responsibilities to themselves and their potential, and get together and make fair and equitable laws to form the basis of a nova society.

We may have our fair share of psychopaths, but we're not all psychopaths. We like law, order, society, and a free market just like the baselines do. But they have to be built to take our capabilities and limitations into account. The current model is just a few short, sharp shocks away from falling around our ears.

So Grandpa and Great Grandpa did something dangerous and stupid, so I should do the same thing ... No.

What we learned about nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare is that we didn't want to create the same mistakes again. That's why we don't use V-X today.

There is risk, but there is also consequence. That's my point. Yes, when resources were diverted into emerging technologies we got all kinds of benefits, peripheral and direct. If society screwed up (say Love Canal) then society had to foot the bill. What you propose is foisting your decisions onto a society.
You cause some horrific luck somewhere and you want a Do-Over. And if that doesn't work out, then another Do-Over ... and another. Best of all, you are the one who decides when the experiment stops and if it was done in the wrong direction.

As for genies, huh?
There is a difference between wanting to do something and having to do something. You want to experiment. You could arrange to be taken to someplace (like the Moon) were you could experiment in safety. Why don't you?
Once you get good at whatever you are aiming for, come back and offer it around if you like, or just brag about how far you've come.
I would rather have an Anataeus who liked me and wasn't trying to get me killed, thank you. I know. I'm needy and demanding.

A wedge exists? How so? There is no wedge in my life and I'm a nova. I read everyday about novas who seem to be doing fine wedge-free as well. A wedge may exist for you, but whose fault is that?
Tensions will continue to arise if it helps groups push their agenda. It certainly helps the Teragen. I'm not saying that your team is the only one pushing things. Utopia does it, as does CoMA. Hate doesn't wear a genetic code.

If that model comes crashing down in my lifetime, I'm not going to be blaming the baselines, buddy. I will know who has ruined my life.

Grandpa and Great-grandpa did something stupid that they didn't know was stupid, and even if they did, it was better to try than sit around and wait for the alternatives to bite them in the ass. Society only gets better when people expand and don't settle for today being like every other day. It isn't, it can't be. Change happens. Build windmills, not windbreakers.

And how did all the shit like Love Canal clean up? Novas, right? That's my point: we may cause messes, but we're also the only ones that can fix them. We won't know how to fix them until we experiment with what we can do. We can't do that tiptoeing around the baselines. That's asking for time we may not have.

And I don't think our evolution is as under control as you might think. Life goes on, people change. We improve, which upscales our problems, which means we have to upscale, and so on. Can't jam Darwin's Radio.

And the Teragen didn't make the hate. We made a group to protest some of the shady shit going on with the Elites and Project Utopia. The hate was there, and thanks to PU, it got focused on us. The CoMA have always been around: it used to be blacks and Jews, it became homosexuals, and now it's us. That crowd manufactures hate like it's daily bread.

No, they had a government, and laws, and customs to help them decide. You want to put the cart before the horse and do all the experimenting without any external direction. Experiment on yourself all you want. You experiment on our shared environment, you should own up to the fact that its shared, not yours.



Baselines cleaned up Love Canal. They prefer to use us, but can get by without us. FYI, Love Canal was a crime. People were punished for creating it. Accountability.
A) You share the planet with me. I am not particularly happy with you willy-nilly fucking with it. Tip-toeing indeed.
B) What makes you think we don't have the time? To be cautious? To create some kind of knowledgeable body capable of saying "This risk is too great."



I don't think evolution is under control. I didn't get an Owner's Manual with my headache.
We Upscale? We fuck-up to, like that Chinese nova who blew himself up in Kashmir.
I'm not jamming Dwarin's Radio. I'm asking the listeners to control the volume.



Hate killed the Mayor of Tampa. He wasn't holding any novas hostage. He wasn't threatening Geryon (nor was he much of a threat). Geryon killed him because he hated Rupert's politics. Hate.
Mind you, I don't much like Utopia's spin control either, and CoMA is a cancer. You will get no argument there.

1)What makes me think we don't have time? Because the one person I trust to predict the future is telling me, in pretty sharp detail, that pretty soon baselines and novas will go to war. Not all at once, one skirmish after another, but soon enough nukes will start flying. It's not that hard to believe: the signs are all there. For all I know, this thing with Slider already set the ball rolling. I don't like it, and I'm doing all I know how to change or at least soften it, but it would be a hell of a lot easier if we had some nova solidarity.

That's why we need the changes I'm talking about. It's radical surgery, like chemotherapy, but it's the closest thing we have to a reasonable chance of success. We need to remind baselines that there's a chance that they, or their children, could Erupt. That the laws they write to restrict us could be turned against them someday. It won't be easy, but if we all, novas and baselines, keep our eyes on the goal, we could pull through. It's the best choice we have if guys like you want to keep living in baseline society, and other novas get the room they need to grow.

Colonizing space, the oceans, the poles: There are movements in that direction, but how long do they have to get established? Hard to say. My magic 8-ball says: Not enough. I hope I'm wrong.

2) And how do we control the volume? How the hell is the radio designed? There's a lot we don't know, and won't know until we get a chance to put it to the test. And we can't, because everyone thinks the sky will fall.

3) Yeah, hate got Murdoch killed. Where we disagree is whose hate was responsible. He had a nova named Sluice arrested for peacefully protesting, and that's all Sluice was doing. He had the institutional power to do so. And PU and the US government hemmed and hawed and used strong language, but didn't do shit. There were a whole bunch of baselines rejoicing. Who else might Murdoch have inspired if no one stepped in to remind him that there's a limit to how far you can push someone?

1)You have a Magic 8-Ball that can reliably tell the future. A little more sharing on his/her part would be nice. S/He hasn't talked to me and I'm not buying your line of reasoning. You say a war is inevitable, thus you can fall into a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Besides, I've never heard of someone that powerful (to know it all), so I'm doubly skeptical.

You aren't going to get very far with the baseline authorities acting the way you are either. By a bit more like Count Orzaiz.

2)Sigh. By volume, I was referring to how hard you push yourself. That goes for every nova. Don't call your personal fuck-ups evolution. You push yourself too hard, own up to your mistake. Progress can be slower and more controlled. If you push hard to get your power now, don't go asking me to pay the bill. That's what you're doing.

3)I feel so much better knowing that now many more people now think that I deserve a bullet to the back of the head than a day in court.
Geryon didn't show up to get Sluice out of jail. He came to kill the Mayor. No matter how you candy coat it, that's the bitter pill.

Paramancer, you seem to know someone of importance within the Teragen. Could you answer this for me?

In the record, Count Orzaiz seems surprised when he is first confronted with Geryon's actions. Why is this?

1) On another thread, you seriously recommended calling the Directive to "help" a nova with an unique feeding requirement. Given that level of judgment, I doubt he'll want to share anything with you. And given how accurate he's been with my finances, I can see a lot of unsavory types wanting to get to him. So, no.

And the reason I mention this possibility is to get novas out there trying to stop it from happening. If we pull our shit together, we can stop the worst of it. But baselines need to start giving as much as they've taken for that to happen. And as long as some of us keep lying to them and telling them they won't, we're on the bullet train to Armageddon.

2) If there was a way to get around the taint issue, wouldn't you want to know? Then don't judge us for pushing ourselves; you don't have the slightest clue what we're doing, and what needs to happen to find out what to do.

3) What makes you think they didn't believe that before Geryon set things straight? Are you telepathic?

Aesira: I don't know. Maybe because he honestly didn't know what Geryon was going to do? We're not a hive mind. We're a group of freedom fighters tied together by what we believe. We know what needs to happen, but we disagree on how to get there.

It gets rough, but we have to do what we have to do.

So comparing your group to a strutured one like Team Tomorrow would be a false assumption? Okay. I can actually understand that, though I think things will go badly for you eventually.

Living alone is also rough. If living in conjunction with others is equally rough, well ... life is tough for some of us.

1) If he doesn't share he really can't expect me to believe him either.

Your argument to date hasn't been for us to pull our shit together. Its been for us to do what you do instead. Not the same thing.

2) If you have a way to get around the taint issue, and you don't share it with the world, what kind of cruel, sadistic bastard does that make you? Dustbin, for one, needs someone's help.

As for me not knowing what's going on: Why don't you tell me? All I hear is that I have to accept your judgement on the merits and pitfalls of pushing yourself. Your statements have no foundation with me, and I find your outlook threatening.

3) The removal of Sluice by T2M was televised. So was the murder of Rupert. It doesn't take a telepath to see that he went straight for the mayor and killed him. Mind you, maybe you could talk to him about it and get back to me.

1) I doubt he expected you to believe me regardless of what I told you. Shows he was right.

2) Maybe because it's being developed, takes a lot of time, and involves pushing the limits as part of it? Maybe it requires that the law not attempt to interfere, which isn't fucking likely? Maybe it requires isolation, that he's not going to get now?

3) Maybe Geryon has better things to do, as do I. Good day, sir.

We're freer to act than those paid show-ponies at Team Tomorrow, which gives us strengths as well as weaknesses. Don't count us out yet!

Life is rough, but if we get it together, it doesn't have to be. Not forever. It's never raining all the time.

1) Don't even try and pull that. Not happening.

2) Another work in progress - completion date unknown - final results unknown. Go ahead and try it anyway.

This doesn't bother you?

3) Later.