Yeah, I gotta admit, I can at least see where you're coming from, and I respect the fact that you've obviously thought this shit out. It's obvious you care, and caring is a good thing.

But dude...lighten up! Seriously, this has to be one of the best times to be a nova on the planet. I admit, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, and what I know about politics would fill a thimble and still rattle around. But this doom and gloom stuff...You can't change the world by hiding in a bunker and taking pot-shots at it when it comes around. That cuts you off and guarantees you'll set yourself up for failure. And I can't trust ANY political movement that says, "My way or the highway." It's always a bad sign when movements start doing that.

Just chill. Bad stuff happened before novas came around, and bad stuff will keep on happening now that we're here. There's no need to freak out.

Yeah, that's the bitch of doing things in secret. Things can be done to you in secret. Me living in secret is my own call to make and I'm the only one who suffers. When you do it with this answer to taint, a whole bunch of novas suffer. Do you get that?
Besides, when did you guys become the last, great hope? Seriously, novas have been around for all of 11 years.


I said you were dreaming. Not the same thing.


Two things: What is it that you think humanity doesn't want from you?
, and I understand that new movements are a work in progress. I wish you would treat it as something you and a group of other novas were working on and not the Next Great World Religion for Novas with all the answers.


I kind of wish your buddies Geryon, the Confederate, and Shrapnel felt that way. They are Teragen too.


Elites are compensated in a way they desire for what they are contracted to do. What do you call some one who is compensated with stupid crap?
Again, do you understand that you are calling most novas blind, stupid, or both? We are not. We just like the world the way it exists.


Why not? Were is your proof? Were civil liberties were protected, novas were protected. It sucked to be in China, any Hard-line Islamic countries, or some of the Third World countries, but it sucks to be a baseline there too.
Funny, but we have power and things (like Josh's wine, women, and song) gravitate toward power. It earns us a very comfortalbe life if we want it. Why is this wrong?

You're shitting me, right? Tell me you're shitting me.

You want to yell at us for having secrets, when that's been the status quo for baselines as long as they've been on the planet? "When the first two cavemen gathered together, a conspiracy was hatched against the third one." Or something like that. Tell me baseline governments don't keep secrets from each other, or even from different branches of themselves, I dare you. And then try to convince me that just by existing, we don't freak out the baselines. We do what we do for survival's sake. That includes yours as well as ours.

And we became the last, best hope when we were the only ones out there not pretending to be "humanz wif kewl powerz" instead of something different. Project Utopia knows this, but they'd rather die than admit it.



And I chose to ignore that. But thanks for restating it. Really. It adds so much to the dialog.



Well, plenty of them are getting pissed off at being outshined by novas. That shouldn't be a secret to anyone. We get it done faster and better, but by doing so, we make quite a few of them obsolete. It'll get worse when more of us show up. A lot of tensions between baseline and nova stem from that.

As for your second point: that's Project:Utopia. We're the counter to their arguments. Our answers may not make you happy, but the truth is like that sometimes.



Dude, we tried doing the Kum Ba Yah thing. No one gave a shit, not even those paragons of justice at PU. The law was unjust, period. And there are plenty of baselines who've had violent demonstrations when civil disobedience didn't work. For a little bit of US history: Do you think Martin Luther King would have had as easy a time as he did preaching peace, if there wasn't Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam waiting in the background? Or vice versa? Ghandi would have disappeared if there hadn't been a crowd of people ready to riot if something happened to him. Change is hard, people resist, and that's why things get violent. That's just history.

And as for comforts and power: why rely on baselines to provide that for us, when we could easily do for ourselves? And what about brothers and sisters like Dustbin, who just can't fit in to the neat little box that society needs?

Drew: I appreciate it, brother. Thanks.

Mellow: I'm trying, but you see what I have to work with.

Quoted for truth.

1- You aren't claiming to know who killed Kennedy. You are claiming to have the cure for Nova Cancer. There is a difference.
2- I came to the realization that I wasn't human without your cool little club. I doubt I'm alone in this.
3- The world's economy is buzzing along just fine. Novas put some people out of work, but create jobs for others. Its been that way with innovations for centuries.
4- I prefer Sluice's non-violent protest, or Count Orzaiz's reasoned arguments as opposed to bloody, broken bodies in the street. Poor Sluice got tarred with Geryon's brush and hasn't been seen since.
5- Novas can't do everything for themselves. I can't make my own car, grow my own food, or provide entertainment on the TV. I am not aware of too many novas who can.
Could I find a bunch of novas that provide these needs for me? Sure, but at what cost to me? Why do it when working with baselines is easier, more convienent and more rewarding?
I think we are back to that whole Wedge-thing.

1) No, I said we had a method of treatment that was as close as we could get. The cure eludes us just as it does everyone else. We can curb the worst of it, but it's not going away.

2) You should have told Project: Utopia that.

3) But it's getting skewed toward unemployment.

4) Of course you do. It allows you to ignore the arguments if you want to. And that's what plenty of people do. Those of us getting shafted cannot afford that.

5) But other novas can do that when they get together. It's called "society".

Wow! All this thinking and philosophizing.

Truth is the province of the Victors.

The "I'm a different species, so I/we get to make and abide by my/our own laws...Incidentally, my associate just pwned your Ford Explorer" argument doesn't fly with me.

You live here, you're a part of the system, you abide by the rules or suffer the consequences. The only way I could see this working is in the form of some...mass Teragen exodus.

But running around claiming to be outside baselines jurisdiction and actin' a foo'....that sort of thing gives the Teragen a bad rep.

And that's about my only beef with the you guys, right there.

1) Thank you for clarifying that.
2) I seemed to have missed out on the whole Project Utopia experience - on purpose.
3) Were do you get those figures from? Its not the information I get. Sure jobs have shifted, but the old Third World/Soviet Bloc is making greater gains than some of the stagnant first world economies are losing. Employment is up, in my estimations.
Maybe your boss can see things the rest of us don't?
4) Put it this way: I am driven away from the Teragen because of the actions of your violent compatriots. Am I alone?
5) I don't want to be in a society with Primal, Geryon, Leviathan, or Shrapnel. I'd like to be in a more peaceable, civilized one.

The rules of the system also say that if you feel underrepresented, or if the rules are slanted against you, you can protest. If protest gets ignored, you escalate. Societies grow decadent and corrupt, and plenty of people have revolted. Why are novas excluded from that?

Because we're different? Then why not have different laws?

Maybe you posted earlier and I missed it, but how are we getting such a shit deal here? The world is pretty much our oyster, novas like Dustbin and governments like China aside.

1) For now, but what happens when Russia stabilizes, or more novas Erupt?

2) No, but we get plenty coming in who realize how underhanded Utopia and the Directive are. The alternatives suck, you say? We're only one out of many. Why not see how happy the Directive is with your questions? Or what happens when you get in the grill of an Utopian rep? Or, for fun, why not get in the face of Caestus Pax?

3) Who says they want to be in society, or in society with you? They tend to prefer their own company, or solitude. Why not give it to them?

Or the housing market goes south? Economies go up and down. It happens. A world-wide collapse is another thing entirely.


Directive - Man, you bet I'd like to question them. They don't seem to be standing up (and saying how great they are) though.
Utopia - ditto. What really happened to Slider, for starters. I can't seem to get the resident Utopians to have these discussions.
Pax - do you think he would get pissed enough to crush his keyboard? I don't think I'm that difficult.


By all means. Solitude is just that. Drew said it pretty well. Don't play all independent of baselines and all while living off their society.

I would prefer you created your own society WITH its own laws and customs before you went to war with baseline society. Right now its What I Know versus Make It Up As We Go Along Chaos.

1) What makes you think any government on this planet would recognize it? What makes you think we aren't working on it?

2) Is that coming from the same guy who has, as his .sig, "The unknown makes life interesting?" Life is change, and novas have changed, and will continue to change, everything we once knew.

1) I don't know if any government would recognize it. I do know I haven't heard word One about an attempt at a nova government though. I'm not going to beat you up about President Portman.

2) Interesting can still get you dead. I like people to question the unknown, not resign themselves to not knowing.

Come to our meetings. Or try to drop in on them.

I cannot guarantee your safety if you listen in without our knowledge, or if you're seen talking to us and another group gets edgy, but I'm sure you could learn some interesting things.

But I have doubts you'll be happy with anything I tell you, and you'll only be satisfied if you learn it on your own. So go exploring.

If anyone else has any other questions, just PM me. As of this point, I am out of this thread. I'll answer as much as I can without compromising my safety, or the safety of my allies and cause.

They are. Mud people are a degenerate branch of humanity. Why is that so hard to understand?

Is that what you call this drivel?

Wow.

Mister E, I give you this: Frustrating as you were, you actually added something to the conversation. This...subtracts.

Paramancer (see, I got it right this time), I seek knowledge and am willing to challenge the beliefs of others to expand my own understanding. As you said, I'm frustrating.

As for Alptraum, just say .

{a nod to Liberteen}

Yes, I read some of his earlier posts. Charming.

Very, VERY impressive post there dude. Can't say I agree with all of it, but this does paint the Teragen in a better light for me.

Raise the dead. Start a second big bang to fire up your own universe. Pipe dream dude, but a very nice one.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one and it's just not happening. How is baseline society supposed to interact with us without law? How are we supposed to interact with each other?

Just for example, we elites have the code. IMHO we're better off with it than without it.

Agreed... but how does this square with what you said before?

???

'mancer said he was withdrawing from the thread - granted, he posted minutes later, but that was about Alptraum and so doesn't count. You might wanna PM him.

Back again, because you seem like someone who will listen, even if you disagree.

I'm saying that the usual baseline laws and customs have to be scrapped for novas, and something built to take their place. The usual laws weren't built with us in mind. That "every nova a law unto themselves" bit was just a patch until we all could get something hammered out. The other side wants to extrapolate and extrapolate from baseline law, but it will end up pinching a lot of novas and stunting their growth, or the laws will be stretched into unrecognizability. Neither result is good, so we simply need to start fresh. That's it. That's really the whole point. A lot of people flip out because that means change, and they hate change, but sometimes change is necessary.

And as to your third point, there is a lot of pressure, both overt and subtle, obvious and implied, for a nova to put on a eufiber suit and tie, punch a clock, and smile pretty for the employers. Some novas aren't physically or psychologically built for that, and need to be allowed to go their own way without interference. Also, novas are asked to do a lot, far more than the baselines can currently repay. We'd like to see more freedoms in return for the disparity.

Why isn't it okay for novas to aspire to leadership positions within baseline society? If novas can still be a part of human society, why shouldn't they use their gifts to make life better for all?

I'm against coersion, but I do see many novas who chose to give of themselves and it does't feel wrong to me.

Likewise, if you don't want to interact, what mechanisms exist to force a nova to? Seriously, I think nova can and should help out those who want to go off and explore themselves away from baseline eyes. We can do both.

Would you, as a baseline, trust them? Novas can be very clever and awfully persuasive...

As far as not interacting, other novas and technology derived from nova study bar that door. If you haven't seen it yet, it's because you're not on their radar screen.

{I bring this up because another Terat has told me that co-existing with baselines is wrong and a waste of my potential. I'm looking for some answers.}


That's part of what I do: get people to trust me to do what's best for them. They give me their futures and I do my best to make their future dreams come true. They give me trust and I don't abuse it.

As a baseline, would I trust a nova? It depends on the the novas expertise, but I imagine since I do trusts nova specialists as a nova, I would trust them as a baseline. I don't do everything, nor do I see myself rising to that state anytime in this century. I like working with people.

In a way, we need trust to get stuff done. You have to rely on people for something - unless you are totally self-sufficient. I trust baselines to do things around me and for me. Why shouldn't I? Fear? Fear of what? I think you should try interacting with baselines more and stop fearing their capacity to witchhunt (which I fully admit exists). The more we know about each other, the less we have to fear from one another.

What is the price for being in the Teragen?

You seem like a smart guy Ravenshire, that's why the ignorance of what's quoted up there about made me choke on my Red Vines.

Why isn't it okay for them to aspire to leadership? No one says its not okay, the problem is, novas can alter anothers decision making faculties and warp other to thier point of view in what baselines would consider 'unatural'.

A nova could use their gifts to make life easy... for awhile. The problem is, it wouldn't last. People can't be forced to change, they are what they are. Eventually thier minds would no longer accept the 'prgramming'. They would evolve, like we did, into something that could think for itself again.

We can't deny our nature.



Obviously you aren't. Nova's using thier gifts while to attain, maintain, or manipulate the populace to 'make life better' is coersion.


None toots. Coffee's free, donuts are free.

Primal, I'm not negating or nullifying their will, nor am I enforceing a decision by threat or force. I ask people what they want and help them get it.

I don't coerce. I don't support novas who do. I do believe in the works of novas like Liberteen, who fights for peoples right of sexual and reproductive choice.

Then perhaps you should be more clear when you make statments like the one above. Hmm?