Hey friends!

I've been a long, LONG time member of Ex Libris Nocturnis and Shadownessence, but the Aeon 'verse has LONG been big in my heart.

I'm slowly pulling a Project Utopia PBeM together(will likely post an invite when I'm closer to ready), but I wanted to ask about Mega-Strength.

Over the years, I've heard big complaints that it is game-breakingly powerful. Do you agree? Does it need to be dulled down (each dot equaling a multiple of 3 auto-successes, for instance), or is it just fine the way it is in the original d10 ST rules?

It's in line, I feel, with other powers (does less damage than a qbolt, has less range, costs less juice.) It's not really in line with other mega-attributes, though - a mega-strong nova can dish out more pain than a mega-stamina nova can take.

I figure that mega-strength is the 'marathon' offensive damage option whereas quantum bolt and its related are the 'sprinter' option - you can hit just as hard at the end of the day with mega-strength as you could at the start, but quantum bolts don't last forever. So I'm more or less fine with it.

If you want a game-breaking combination, pair Aggravated damage with Mental Blast. It's like Schrodinger's super power - no one knows how much damage it does and how to stop it. Does it do 1 per success? Flat rate of 5? Does Psychic Shield defend against it, since it costs the same per autosucess/soak as Invulnerability (Mental Powers?) Who knows.

MegaStrenght also doesn't have any combination powers that depend on it for dice pool. It doesn't increase your Brawl attempts. MegaStamina can boost Poison, ShapeChange, Forcefield etc so purchasing a dot of MegaStam gives you numerous potential benefits. With MegaStr you punch and lift. End of story for the most part.

Hugin, MegaSTR doesn't add to STR+Brawl rolls? Otherwise, great point.

I'm not looking specifically for game-breaking powers, I'm more concerned about a player who, though creative and wonderful to play with, REALLY gets tempted by min-maxing. If its an obscure power combo, I can handle it in game. I just didn't want a game to start off the bat with overkill.

Thanks for the swift input. Any other thoughts?

My personal favorite, and I still haven't gotten to play one in game yet, is Mega-Dex + Telepathy. With enough mega-dex you could juggle tanks and you are basically one dot behind someone of equivalent mega-str on how much you can lift, of course it is based on the successes you get when you roll, but still that can be a great deal of damage from range.

That's right - Mega-Str. dice DO NOT add to your Str.+Brawl dice pool.

Also, Mega-Dex doesn't apply to how much you can lift. Joram, are you refering to Telekinesis, which uses Dex/M-Dex with its dice pool?

Yes, that's what I was referring to, with Telekinesis the dice pool determines how much you can lift with your mind. Thus a maxxed out Mega-Dex would have quite a large ability to lift objects the telekinesis falling just behind someone maxxed out with Mega-Str would using their hands. Of course, unlike Mega-Str, you have to deal with rolling the dice and how many successes you get.

I looked again at the corebook, and indeed, Mega-STR doesn't add dice to Brawl or allow difficulty reductions... it just adds straight auto-successes. If you had MegaSTR 1 you would just roll your straight STR+Brawl... and add 5 successes. With MegaSTR 2 you would add 10 successes automatically. This is inordinately more powerful and reliable than the standard "add dice/reduce difficulty" situation.

We ARE aware of that, yes?

If so, do you still feel the same that Mega-STR isn't too crazy powerful on its own?

It is pretty crazy powerful, but not out of proportion with other things. Plus, consider what would happen if Superman put his full strength into punching an normal mortal. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. So yeah, I think that's the way it's supposed to be. But consider that someone with qbolt can do massive damage from a distance. Someone with mind blast can destroy your mind, someone with shapechange can become basically anything, someone with density decrease can become completely immune to everything except mental attacks.

Using normal 30pt character creation, if someone is going to pump everything into mega-str, they are going to be a one trick pony. They will be extremely powerful in one and only that one area, but a sniper or q-bolter could take them out from a distance before the Strength monkey even knows they are there. Game over.

If it were me, I'd let the player have the power and give them some opportunities to really show it off, but also give them some challenges that they won't be able to deal with on strength alone, like someone wounding them from half a mile away with a high powered sniper rifle, or a mindbender that takes control of him and uses him destroy a city block or break open a bank vault and retrieve the gold inside. You get the idea.

Those auto-successes are not added during the "to-hit" phase of the roll, but added to the damage. That's a critical distinction. A Might roll will get the added successes, but a Brawl roll, which involves combat finesse, does not. Only if the nova hits do those auto-successes matter.

No, however keep in mind that M-Dex does add to Martial Arts rolls, and M-Str is used as a factor for calculating Hand-to-Hand damage.

I've seen a few players take Martial Arts just to get the bonus of the M-Dex dice to back up their M-Str with out justification for why their character would know Martial Arts. I'm not one to permit characters to fall back on the "When I erupted all the knowledge of the Shao Lin Monks entered my brain!" excuse.



Like McGee said, it's pretty on par with what's already in the universe as is. A 'Brute' will most likely obliterate anything with out proper defenses but for the most part the game should stay balanced. I play my games with no damage caps, the rule of carrying over only 5 successes to the damage pool is removed, and we've never noticed anything off balancing about M-Str.

Keep in mind that that the node of a nova, while capable of doing anything, is just as individual as the nova it belongs too. Some novas will never develop certain abilities (even though the node is capable) because it's just not in that nova's personality to do so.

As the Story Teller, make sure you know what kind of game you want to see. Do you want it themed where the novas have a power scheme they adhere to (Human Torch, Ice Man, Spider Man) or a game where the PCs have carte blanche to learn any power they desire at any time.

If it's themed then you can inform the Min/Maxing players (an I am not judging, we've all done it ) that if they select a 'Brute' type of nova to play other powers may be banned to them (like telepathy, telekinesis, teleport, Q-Bolt), or that M-Atts beyond a certain point are more difficult to achieve (like 4 and 5) and can only be purchased if you as the ST feel that the character has really pushed the limits of his/her [attribute] far enough to merit an increase.

Take advantage of the opportunity to embrace the role playing options avail within each character. A node can easily allow a nova to lift 100 tons, and it can also just as easily say "Nope. You're fine where you are."

RE: M-Strength being broken.
Mega-Str isn't balanced against the other Mega-Atts, it's balanced against Q-Bolt and the defenses. For the system as a whole it's fine.

It doesn't add to Brawl, but you could max out Martial Arts and buy Mega-Dex as well. Thus Superman with lots of M-Str and lots of M-Dex is extremely impressive... and expensive.

Pretty much. Q-Bolt being able to be power maxxed is another factor that's often over looked.

This covers several fine points of the rules.

M-Blast is a resisted power, making it Aggravated doesn't change this, but it will do an extra [Q] succ on your roll and make it Agg damage (very nasty).

P-Shield gives both soak and auto-willpower succ. The later work normally since Aggravated attacks ignore soak, not "defenses". Similarly, basic willpower and spending willpower also work normally. If the nova has P-Shield and Hardbody then they can spend a point of quantum and apply their soak as well as the auto-resist. Ditto if they have Impervious with P-Shield.


RE: Theme
What he said. Further, ignore that the Hulk can easily get twisted by Mega-Socials. The big problem is when you have to live with real physics and real consiquences it becomes clear while M-Str is "powerful", it's not terribly important in terms of getting things done.

I would argue that Hardbody shouldn't protect from Agg mental attacks...unless one bought it (as per the suggestion in the APG) not as a Mega Stamina Enhancement, but as on of the mega mental attributes.

I would also argue that Psi-Shield won't do anything (either auto succ or soak)unless bought with Impervious, and that one needs Invulnerability Mental as a defense against this attack.

I am also inclined to say that the psy-shield description 9like some others) is somewhat contradictory. Auto succ and soak is double dipping..especially for the level 1 price. Seems to me it should do one or the other, not both. So it either helps you on the resistance roll (and if you succeed then you take no damage, since the willpower roll acts to reduce the other persons succces, which are also the damage dice.) Otherwise it reduces damage *twice* making it the most unbalanced defense in the game for its respected offense.

Sorry I know its not about Mega Str but Courier brought it up and I had something to say 'bout it.

Wow, these are fantastic, everyone! I'll not modify the rules at all, I'm going to be running a very narration-oriented game, so this should be fine.

Since the thread seems to be hoppin', I can pose a new question:

How do you resolve "social combat"? I know Eon Online has put out a version in terms of using the social sphere as an arena to smear other novas, but I'm also concerned about direct mental conflicts like Mega-Manipulation. Its easy when a player has mega-MAN and wields it against NPCs, they just do what he/she says. But what happens in the case of a Mega-MAN NPC wielding it our hypothetical Mega-STR hero? Its not mind control, but how can I mechanically represent the NPC sincerely convincing the hero?

M-Blast+Agg is doing physical damage... and the defenses against it are already over the top rare. There are very, very few book characters who have both Hardbody and P-Shield, and Hardbody doesn't do anything by itself in this case.

Two problems, rules and balance. Rules-wise Agg doesn't say it ignores all defenses. You can still dodge, turn desolid, teleport, etc.

Second of all, there's multiple issues on game balance. Outside of Divis Mal, I can't think of anyone who has Imperv on their P-Shield. The defense should be more common than the attack because the attacker can use his power on anyone. Further, the majority of defenses against agg attacks already don't work against M-Blast+Agg. Since M-Blast is a resisted attack, you *can't* dodge it, or turn desolid, etc. I don't see making the defenses so impossibly rare that no one has them as a good thing.

I suspect that you're right as far as what the writers meant... but what they actually put down says clearly that it does double dip.

:Shrug: But for all that it's not actually unbalanced. The thing about P-shield is it only affects mental attacks, and those are nova/psiad only and even then are pretty rare. Worse, typically a PC travels in a group of other PCs, and if someone knows that character "A" has a mind shield, then he can just attack character "B".

To put that in perspective, Intuition works against everyone, all the time, and no one has a choice but to try to deal with it. And yes, preventing surprise is pretty huge even if most ST's don't often try that route.

Several ways. First of all, describe the NPC as being sincere and obviously believing what he says.

Then, in the advent of a 5+ succ over the PC's willpower, tell him what his character thinks. "You're in love with her and are totally convinced of what she is saying". Hopefully the player is adult enough to roll play that.

On dealing with Mega-Socials:
Read the descriptions of Domination and Emotion Control. In theory, the Mega-Socials have a lessened effect than these two powers.

Or arguably more. Mega-Attributes are more fundamnetal than powers. Someone with a mega manipulation 5 almost doesn't need emotion control, especially with a (very likely) maxed empathy skill.

The thing about those powers is that with Domination you *know* your will is being overridden, violated as it were. And emotion control wears off after the scene, and then the person realizes how extreme and out of control their emotions were. The thing about manipulation is that it makes people do what you want and that its their idea to do so.

Likewise charisma creates a genuine aura of likeability to the person that is magnetic, almost as if one is able to touch their souls. When I think of Mega Charisma I think of stuff like old concert videos of michael jackson, and the whole stadium is freaking out, girls are sobbing and losing their shit...

Mega socials are no joke (and i happen to be exploring this topic with one of my few mega social characters in a new game atm so good timing on this thread).

RE: Psi Shield and Mental Blasts etc..

The arguments you make in favor of game balance are pretty strong Alex. Courier ( ) Thanks for agreeing with me on the writer's intent though. It's amazing how glaring some of these examples are...like they had took many cooks in the kitchen.

I guess all my question about mega-socials stems from an encounter in a previous game where a representative of an Elites organization, where a Mega-MAN NPC was trying to convince a player to come into a helicopter even though the PC initially didn't want to...

No matter how convincing someone is, if its against your own inclinations, there should be some sort of defense. Would a simple contested Manipulation roll do it? Or do Mega-MAN people always convince you and you just have to play it?

Exalted offers some kind of "you can disagree with a lost Manipulation battle by spending a willpower point."

Well, you can always spend a willpower point for one automatic success. However, I would make it a contested roll if it is something that the character would normally be against. What roll that would be would depend on what kind of manipulation was going on.

What about the stipulation that someone with a mega attribute always wins against someone without it and even lower levels of that same attribute?

Earlier upthread the argument was made, by me, that mega-strength was balanced against powers like quantum bolt, because it does less damage and has less range and is therefore justified as having a lowered cost. It was well-received.

If people are saying that mega-socials should have a broader range of effect, a more permanent range of effect, cost less quantum to use and be subtler in their use than powers like Domination and Empathic Manipulation, then I would put forth that that is unbalanced and shouldn't be interpreted that way.

I'm biased against mega-socials because I've been in a game or two where the GM battered my character about with mega-social NPCs to the point I saw little point in showing up because all of my decisions and feelings were going to be dictated to me. RPGs have their appeal to me because of choice - I choose which door to open, whom to talk to and what to do, in a way that computer RPGs can't simulate as well and that other forms of entertainment can't offer at all. Key word in that sentence being entertainment - I'm perfectly capable of playing a star-struck love slave, I just don't particularly want to, for much the same reason as I'd prefer to watch a movie with the picture turned on. It's just not entertaining to me otherwise. It'd be missing a vital component of what makes it fun.

I don't see a way to merge this gaming philosophy with mega-socials, however, since key to them seems to be that choice is an optional component of the day's session. Which is why I tend to handwave them as much as possible. If someone wants to be unimpressed by Knockout's ability to knock over freestanding structures by turning around suddenly, I'm not going to get offended and demand they pay attention to her. Odds are that the player's found something more interesting to do, and waving a few dots on a bit of paper around's not going to change that.

The book states that these rules are best used in direct attribute-to-attribute contests, and not contests involving abilities or other traits. It's really easy to miss, however.

I have a feeling in any straight contested roll, regardless of ability used, the one with the higher Mega-ATT wins, contrary to McGee's opinion.

At the same time, I agree with McGee's concern of just having options dictated to him by the ST. If I pit a Mega-MAN nova against player-characters with no Mega-MAN... then they should automatically be convinced to do what they are manipulated into doing. That doesn't make for fun gaming.

The players should ultimately be able to do what they want, while at the same time being somewhat punished for trying to resist a Mega-MAN nova

Here is the Exalted Social Fu I used in that game world... might have some application to the Aeon universe... http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Madwand/Social-Fu

I like Alex's idea of "presenting" the Mega Manipulative character in a way that would appear to be sincere, even offering the player what the ST knows they want while pulling strings behind the scenes.

In a game inplay on another site many of the PCs and NPC's are world class mega socials. So the ST has all our Social atts displayed next to our profiles and everyone just roleplays accordingly.

What I was referring to was the note on pg. 171 in the Aberrant book. "Awe Inspiring is not Domination; it is far weakerthan that, and shouldn't be played that way."

Yes, it is referring to one Enhancement of Mega-Appearance, but it is one of the few guideposts we have.

What we might look at is the Resist instintual response versus Resist mental powers, both on pg. 145. The former allows you to shrug off "fear ... revulsion ... lust" with the expendature of a single willpower.

Ultimately in a contest between two mega social novas, the one with higher stats wins. For example, two mega social men are both trying to seduce the same woman.

However, in my games, I am not going to allow direct mega-social domination without being resistible. In other words, if you were playing the woman being pursued by two mega-social men, you wouldn't just automatically become their sex slave just because they decided they wanted you, unless of course that were what you were inclined to do in the first place. Otherwise, at the very least I would allow the spending of willpower to resist their advances. Of course, you only have a limited amount of willpower, so if you don't take the opportunity to get out of the situation and away from the temptation you will eventually run out of willpower and become their sex slave.

So yes, ultimately a mega-social would win against someone that didn't have the appropriate stats to resist, but they could use their willpower to temporarily avoid giving in. Otherwise you set yourself up for situations that just piss off your players. It's one thing to lose, its another thing to have never had a chance to win.

Ah yes, Joram and Ravenshire, it looks like you guys nailed this one on the head. p. 145 of the corebook indeed lists that either a point of willpower expenditure or even a successful roll can resist mental powers (in the case of domination and the like), or also to resist an instinctual response (which is probably closer to the situation when you're being convinced by a mega-MAN or mega-CHA character).

This thread has restored a lot of my confidence in the initial playability of the system

Discovered this massive numerically-oriented thread discussing the Mega-Strength issue... i find ProfPotts to be very compelling...

The following fixes were posited that I think are worth considering, to bring Mega-STR more in line with the other Mega-Atts:

1. Mega-STR rolls the same as all other mega-ATTs, but also negates 3 soak for each level of it.
2. All Mega-ATTs give you 3 regular dice for each dot of the Mega-ATT.
3. Add up your regular Att with your Mega-ATT, and you only roll up to 5 dice. If more than 5 are required, they are just auto-successes.

Well, I suppose those are some options. Personally I don't think there is nothing wrong with Mega-Str to begin with.

Uhhh ... that means I roll my Str+M-Str. in brawl, getting auto-successes for each of the dice I roll over five. Then I subtract 3-15 soak, and then when I roll Str+M-Str+2 (for a punch) damage with every stat dice over 5 being an automatic damage level ...

This seems to me something that punishes low mega-str (1-2), balances out at M-Str. 3, and then runs rampant at M-Str. 4 and 5.

Mega-Str. 1 (with a min. str. equal to M-Str.) does 6dice +[0] and reduces soak by 3, which is the equivalent of 3 levels of damage boost. Weaker (if you have a low Str. stat)

Mega-Str. 2 does a min. of 7dice+ [3] and reduces soak by 6, which is the equivalent of 9 levels of damage boost. Just about the same (unless you have a strength stat of 4 or 5 then its better).

Mega-Str. 3 deos a min. of 7dice+ [7] and reduces soak by 9, which is the equivalent of 16 levels of damage boost. Superior than normal rules.

Mega-Str. 4 does a min of 7dice+ [11] and reduces soak by 12, which is the equivalent of 23 levels of damage boost.

Mega-Str. 5 does a min of 7dice+ [15] and reduces soak by 15, which is the equivalent of 30 levels of damage boost.

Okay, it really doesn't punish the lower Mega-Str. unless you have a low Str. stat too. Plus, you will now be hitting a whole lot more now, since you have all those auto-successes going toward your to-hit.
People will be dodging slightly better too, since now a high Mega-Dex character will be looking at tons of auto-successes to hide behind. Mind you, he/she will still hit like a little girl in comparison, so ...

I think these fixes actually DO make Mega-Str. broken.

Re-reading the entire thread, there were 2 problems that kept popping up with most of the potential solutions.

1) If Mega-Strength makes Brawl more accurant then there are balance issues, i.e. Mega-Dex just got a lot weaker.

2) Converting Mega-Strength Auto succ into soak reduction can cause odd results when dealing with low soak things.

Something that didn't show up on that thread was a different option. Have ALL the other mega-stats give 5 auto-succ for ALL the underlying skills. So M-Str wouldn't add to Brawl but M-Dex would add to Martial Arts.

Saying Mega-Dex got weaker is like saying you are getting only 100 Kilotons out of your atomic bomb instead of the projected 150.

Mega-Dex still decided your Initiative, your running speed, has some of the better non-social enhancements and is the one to dictate how accurate your attacks with weapons and martial arts are. On top of that it also dictates how easily you can dodge things.}

Mega-Str? You Box better and can lift big rocks.

Yeah, Mega-Dex is so weak now.

Emerald, I think you misinterpreted... each of those numbered fixes was its own, individual potential fix for Mega-STR.

So a Guy with STR 3 and Mega-STR 3 would be fixed by either:

1. Roll 3baseline and 6 Mega-ATT dice, taking 9 soak away from the target.
2. Just roll 12 dice as though they were all baseline, don't touch soak.
3. Just roll 5 dice and get 1 auto-success... hmm, I think I'm understanding the third one wrong.

Wow, pushing ALL the mega-atts up so that they just get 5 auto-succ per Mega-ATT dot is pretty extreme... that'd make for a super high powered game FAST, and I'm of the personal opinion that novas already get super-powerful fast. But it could be just the ticket for some groups!

I also agree with the notion that Mega-Dex, even "weakened" is still a flippin' useful mechanic. DEX is used 12x more than STR during any given play session.

Nothing wrong with it.

Forget number crunching, think logically for a moment.

Just as the thread said, 'The Hulk' isn't accurate, he flails until something goes squish. It makes sense, so therefore M-Str does not need to add to the accuracy of Brawl attacks. No matter how well 'The Hulk' hits, no more than 5 may be carried over to his damage pool.

Now, let's go to Martial Arts. Spider Man has developed a unique combat style that lets him take advantage of his natural agility, so, he uses Martial Arts. M-Dex (by the rules) adds to his accuracy. So? No matter how many successes Web Head pulls in he can only carry 5 to his damage pool.

Both are equal in the end. The only advantage M-Dex leaves Spider Man is that he has a greater probability to get those 5 successes.

Big woop, chances are the Green Goliath will soak [10]+12B with little difficulty. I estimate Spidey's chances of surviving [25]+12B to be significantly less.

It's fine how it is. Barring the Canon NPCs, which are a joke, and using thin information provided by WW on what the 'average' nova possesses as far as skills and powers, the numbers balance themselves just fine.

That's a pretty succinct summary, Rev, made it a lot clearer to me.

The thing is, doesn't the Mega-STR add to damage? Sure, only 5 carry over from the bonus accuracy... but when he connects, thats TONS of auto-succ.

But I guess you HAVE spent the nova points...

I guess for me, here's where the problem originated... the good folks at WW realized, "Wow, Mega-STR is pretty damn tough, maybe we need to charge QP for its use." Why'd they do that if they didn't actually recognize an issue?

Because they recognized that other people had an issue with it, whether or not there was an actual issue to begin with.

It does balance out, but it takes a while of playing to see the strategies for getting around Mega-Strength, especially since WW games tend to see more combat than they maybe should.

waitaminute...

Mega str doesnt cost qp to use (barring enhancements).

And yeah when Hulk (or Supes or whomever) connects it is going to put on the world of hurt.

As Courier pointed out earlier, Mega Str...as a damaging attack...is quite well balanced against other options like Q-bolt.

Overload, the Players Guide puts forth a 'fix' for those who feel Mega-Strength IS overpowered... it makes you spend a QP for everytime you wanna use it.

But having to pay for it EVERYTIME is overkill, I think.

Hmm... how about treat M-STR as a normal mega-att for free (every dot of M-STR can either be 2 supa-dice or 1 difficulty reduction), but the option can be given to just spend 1 QP for 5 auto-successes? Heck, that system could be applied to ALL M-ATTs.

What do you see being the problem with Mega-Strength?

I guess personally I'm not content that it has its own set of rules separate from the other Mega-ATTs. I'm all for the idea of super-strength as its own weapon, but ProfPotts shows that Mega-Strength beats down even Quantum bolt when it comes to hurling stuff. I feel every player is tempted to take a BIT of super-strength, just in case, even if it wouldn't apply to their character concept that well.

Of course, of course, a mature player and ST would skip it over a really good idea. But everyone wants to make sure their character doesn't get killed prematurely.

In my mind, I feel there should be equality within the mechanics of Mega-atts without regard to any other game mechanic. There's something appealing about Courier's suggestion to just apply the auto-success function put forth by M-STR to all the M-atts... but I feel then that is a bit too powerful without a cost.