Anyone flipped through this stuff yet aside from me?

Briefly... noticed Justin Achilli's favorite clan (Ventrue) remained as one of the splats.

In fact, I was hoping they'd get away from using splats peroid... I guess they didn't want to fix something that isn't broken.

There's still a fucking Camarilla. It figures those fucks would survive the end of the world.

Actually, as near as I can tell, the Camarilla is something of a relic that hasn't existed for quite some time.

It doesn't seem to have any temporal connection to the previous WoD at all. Like hitting the reset button, effectively.

Forget reset. It's a whole new game.

Speaking of which, is the new WoD under the storyteller system or a new system?

It's called the StoryTELLING system now. It's tweaked abit. The FAQ on the website promises no more 2 hour combats.

Good. But I'm still not spending the money. :p

Bleah. Tri-Stat still got 'em beat in combat speed. I completed a boss battle in 3 minutes!!!

Beat that you drama queens!

Flipped through it Saturday -- don't even bother.
As far as I'm concerned, 3rd ed. was it for me.

Looking through another person's books, it's quite a significant redesign of the whole system. The whole system looks like it's been designed with far more consistency in mind.

As for the actual combat mechanics... The system appears to be rivalling D&D in actual step-based simplicity (ie handling time). Any given action is now literally one roll. No soak rolls, no target rolls then damage rolls, it's all been streamlined into one simple roll. So, the amount of rolls required for any given round of action is equal to 2n, where n = number of players. 1 for Initiative, one for action, and that's your action for the round.

Can't argue, really. It's very well streamlined.

As for other things... I do love how they've done a 3 x 3 organised table for Attributes, I like the way that they've arranged character generation (human + template), and... NO FLAWS!!! I was never fond of them in the first place. At least, not the Merits & Flaws thing, anyway. Target Numbers are no longer an issue - Even number of successes is no longer an issue. Everything is adding or subtracting dice. Again, very streamlined, nicely conceived, stays reasonably true to the original Storyteller system, except far less handling times.

I can't wait to see how Mage turns out. Some serious design has gone into the system, and it really does show. While I'd need to go into the system to know for sure, WW seems to have abandoned it's idea of leaving holes in the rules for STs to sort out. Mage, I think, was the system that really needed more explicitness, and if the same amount of effort is put into Mage as it was into WoD and Vampire, I think Mage could become far easier to run in a way shown in the books...

I disgaree regarding Mage, Kirby. I found the openess of it's rules an excellent mechanical representation of how True Magick works. Granted, that means you need responsible players and an even more responsibly ST to make it work...

I think the rules can still be open and freeform, but be somewhat more explicit in how, exactly, the rules are supposed to be interpreted.

The Coincidental/Vulgar distinction, for instance, had several quite different interpretations, all of which were perfectly valid by the rules. I honestly think that a system should attempt to minimise the number of items that are open to such freeform interpretation. Same with Resonance - Wonderful idea, but almost no indication of exactly what you're supposed to do with it.

Also, while obviously a good ST can overcome my next point, the fact that there was so little at the ST's disposal to reinforce player paradigm thinking was quite annoying. Considering how important Paradigm was to Mage's overall concept, the fact that there was almost no rules-support for "keeping in paradigm" meant that giving new players a foothold in a given style of thinking was quite phenomenally hard. If a concept is important to the system, I think it should really be supported in-system, as opposed to merely assumed in the system.

I have high hopes that at least one or two of these issues will be addressed in Mage: The Awakening. I have just as high hopes that they can be addressed while maintaining a freeform system that we all know and love. The new system looks fantastic, and considering the level of writing coming out of WW at the moment, I'm optimistic as to what WW can present players.

One question, has any news or the actual book for the new Mage game come out? Sorta curious.

Quite frankly, Paradox was so open both Players and STs could abuse it. That's why most invites to a Mage game I turned down. Too much munchkinism on either side.

Not yet. Just the core WoD and V:tR.

Hmm.

The only thing that really got me salivating is wanting to see the new world for myself. From what they were describing in their earlier hype machine spewings, is that there will be very little meta-plot, and it'd be more of a personal game. Where what matters is the troupe of players and their interaction with the "foundation" of the world.

When I say foundation, I mean the world as it is up to the point the players play in.

Well, I doubt there will be very little meta-plot. Isn't much of their product geared to meta-plot in the first place? Take that away and you get rid of most of their sales.

I mean, there is a story of what happened up to "today", but they have said that they're now leaving things up to the Storyteller and the players, so that they don't feel as shackled by canon.

I'm sure though that this'll last... 5 minutes before the first plot books are put out and once again the canon Nazis stalk our livingrooms with whips and chains.

I suspect that WW's taking a leaf out of their Exalted books and, instead of selling books that push a Meta-plot, selling books that push the setting. WW's had a lot of success with Exalted, and I suspect that they're basing much of their current WoD marketing plan with what they've learnt from Exalted.

It's possible to continue reasonably constant sales without metaplot, as D&D3.x has been doing it quite well. Setting Exploration is an excellent way of doing it.

And if they forget about the meta-plot, they can work on books that are a good play, as opposed to a good read. As I pointed out, they've been doing quite well with Exalted, I'm optimistic that they can transfer that level of game design to their new systems...

Amen, my brother.

I really think games like this should be an exploration of your character, and the world they live (or lived before their embrace) in.

I think having the ST be the main arbiter of the story, instead of the books, allows for colorful experiences that while being shackled to the plot doesn't allow.

So, since no one liked the D20 update to our favorite game, how about a translation to the new World of Darkness rules? I don't think it would be very hard, but a few things would need to be changed. Is anyone up to it?

I enjoyed running the d20 version of Adventure!, actually. That said, I find that d20 lends a completely different feel to the game, being a different system and all. System models Reality, after all.

Anyway, moving to WoD2.0 rules wouldn't be that much of a stretch, however, the Inspired and Nova templates would be insane!

Why would we apply template to WOD 2.0?? I didnt think it was class based.

I think what Rossi is saying is take the old aberrant system and update it using WOD 2.0 not d20. Am I right?

I think every character in the new WoD system starts as a human and then applies a supernatural temple (vampire, werewolf, mage, etc). Well, that's what I understand at least.

Hmm I guess they don't do point systems anymore?

From what I understand, it's still a point system like before... I guess they divided the 7/5/3 13/9/5 etc into it's own separate process.

Character creation is a step process, just as in the old storyteller games, except there are a few differences.

Step 1: Background and concept.

Step 2: Attributes (5/4/3). Note that to get the 5th dot in any stat requires 2 points.

Step 3: Skills (11/7/3). The same rule for the 5th dot applies here.

Step 4: Skill specialties. Choose 3 skill specialties.

Step 5: Add supernatural template (Vampire/Werewolf/Mage)

Step 6: Determine advantages. These are Defence, Health, Initiative, Morality, Speed, Willpower, and Virtue/Vice.

Step 7: Select Merits (7). These have replaced Backgrounds.

So just what are these templates for step 5? Here is a brief look at the Vampire template.

Clan: Choose which clan your character beongs to;
-Daeva
-Gangrel
-Mekhet
-Nosferatu
-Ventrue

Covenant: Choose which covenant (if any) your character belongs to;
-The Carthians
-The Circle of the Crone
-The Invictus
-The Lancea Sanctum
-The Ordo Dracul

Favorite Attributes: Based on your choice of clan, add one dot to one of your clan's favorite Attributes;
-Daeva: Dexterity or Manipulation
-Gangrel: Composure or Stamina
-Mekhet: Intelligence or Wits
-Nosferatu: Composure or Resolve
-Ventrue: Presence or Resolve

Disciplines: put 3 dot into disciplines

Blood Potency: begins at 1 but Merit points may increase it.

New Merits: include Haven (1 to 5 dots), Herd (1 to 5 dots)

As you can see, this is just a rough outline. While character creation remains very familiar to WoD v1 there are some big changes. I hope that helps everyone who doesn't have the book.

And I smell the reasoning behind this new-wave Storyteller System.

Can you say "special D20 Modern conversion of WoD2?" I mean, this does sound like D20 modern and how characters are designed.

Ida know, it sounds like a cleaned up version of the old WoD system to me, something much more unified.

It doesn't feel like D20 Modern to me, having read through it.

On the other hand, enough changes have been made that some feel for the ST system isn't there either.

Sorry Saki, but I have both books and I have to agree with Singularity. Character creation is relatively similar between all games when you break it down to basics though. You create a concept, then you start applying the specific game's rules to numerically define your character.

Sounds to me like you are looking for a reason not to like it.

Oh no, not at all. I love d20 Modern, and I know I'll love Storyteller 2.0. It just sounded like they were setting up their game so it could also be played using d20 modern with some sort of thing (suppliment, conversion guide, yadda yadda).

I doubt they'll go that route though. The've just re-invented their own games system, so it's unlikely that they will be looking to create a D20 imprint of it any time soon. Most likely they'll be waiting to see how well the New WoD sells.

And from the sound of it, WoD2 should sell pretty well. Based off of what I've heard of the rules...

Well, not just the rules, but they've taken what they've learnt in the last 10 years and created a very well-designed package, that combines useful, consistent setting with excellent rules support. The setting and rules work together quite well and create a quite coherant game.

Well, I haven't made much progress in a translation of Aberrant from the old ST rules to the new, mainly because of a few important stumbling blocks. I'd like to share a couple here in hopes that maybe one of you (who has the nWod rule book) can help me.

Problem 1: With the changing to the Abilities, the Mega-Abilities and their Enhancements must also change. In most cases an almost direct translation can be made. The Mega-Perception and Mega-Appearance Enhancements now have no home however. One idea I had was to alter the prerequisites needed to attain Enhancements, making them less dependent on the character having the normally associated Mega Attributes. That way, someone could buy, say, "The Voice" enhancement without actually having to be Mega Manipulative. This makes the Enhancements more akin to powers while soving the problem of where to put the Perception and Appearance Enhancements.

Problem 2: With the massive overhaul and streamlining of the combat system, the old ways of calculating Soak and Damage have to be re-thought. Also, the new system has removed the multiple action rules seeing as 1 turn is now equal to 3 seconds. I'm not really sure what to do about the whole attack/defence issue regarding powers; I have some ideas but no real idea of what would be balanced and what wouldn't. I'm also wondering if I should rework the multi-action rules back into the system.

On a completely different note; I've been considering introducing a set of Enhancements based on Abilities/skills much like what appears in Exalted.

Well, those are some thoughts/concerns/ideas I've had so far. Let me know what you think...

Just thought I'd bump this, hoping for a response.

It may be worth pointing out that several of the M-App abilities are actually scaled-down versions of Shapeshift - It's not at all inconceivable to remove those entirely, and let Shapeshift be the premier multi-purpose body alteration tool.

Several of the other M-Appearance Enhancements can slot neatly into other attributes. Face of Terror, First Impression and Awe-Inspiring all work perfectly well in Presence, and Seductive Looks is really just Seductive, so it's not really much use having both.

Just as a thought, I don't have a full-time copy of the book, so I can't really contribute that much currently. Does anyone know what Attribute Perception's role has been passed on to?

Yay, a response!

I've considered the shapechange idea too. It does make a lot of sense. Do you think the Enhancements should be turned into Shapeshift Techniques or should Characters be allowed to try any of the Enhancements as a dice action?

Perception is now a dice pool made up of Wits and Composure (or Wits and an appropriate Skill as an optional rule).

It really depends as to whether you want to implement as few changes as possible, or whether you don't mind using Aberrant d20's "all L3s have Techniques" style. Either one has merit. Personally, I'd avoid added complexity and leave Shapeshift alone - in Aberrant ST you can technically do all the M-App shaping enhancements as standard Shapeshift actions anyway. To be honest, I was never entirely sure why they started out as Enhancements anyway, because surely there were more creative ways of supercharging your appearance.

I think, for the most part, that M-Per enhancements may either need to be morphed into Quantum Powers (or folded into the existing Perceptual Quantum Powers), or if you really want to keep them as enhancements, bring some into Wits. That's really all I can think of - the M-Per Enhancements were really cool ones, It'd be nice to keep them around. Just, the shift in focus for Attributes may make them somewhat... incongruous.

One thought I had was to alter the requirements for gaining Enhancements, to make them less dependent on having a Mega Attribute. So,for example, the prerequisites for "The Voice" enhancement would be Manipulation 3 & Expression 3 or having a score in Mega Manipulation. Does that make any sense to you?